Bank of frozen dog sperm?

[Gennadi]

Is any? Who could be in charge in case of organizing sucha bank?
It could be solved a lot of problems in future.

[Pauliina Artiola]

Of course that sort of bank for semen wouldn`t work where anybody could order any semen they wish - not caring what the dog`s owner think. The semen in the semen banks nowadays are always owned by someone (owner of the dog, or the breeder who have transported the semen) and cannot be used in just some bitch but the bitch has to be accepted by the male owner and sign papers to use it.

I think that as well the breeders the dog owners have a big responsibility to how much a male is used.

[Dee Rance]

Coming in at the tail end of this conversation and having read all, most, of the comments, I have to agree with most of what I read. This is a difficult subject, as one who has used frozen sperm, all be it Dexter, (a small breed of cattle), I would think that the stud dog owner should have a say as to who gets the sperm, but when there are great distances involved, then this idea is a good one, not everyone can travel all over Europe or anywhere in the world. This site gives us who are on it a chance to see dogs that most wouldn't even have heard of, and with the genetic pool here in the UK diminishing we all need to think about the future of the breed, do we keep going the way we are, or do we think that something needs to be done, the cow that I was using AI on never got pregnant. The reason for this, I think was, that her pedigree went back to one cow who was mated to her son and that was her pedigree, one cow, and nature has its ways of calling a holt to this kind of thing, the first thing to go in too much in-breeding is fertility. I would like to see an owner operated sperm band, ie no one can use any sperm without the consent of the dogs owner, and perhaps these owners should say no to some of the bitches that come to them, 'to approved bitches only' used to be the thing......still is with some, but some just say 'thanks for the money'

[Henk ten Klooster]

Recent history shows exactly the opposite of "dog owners have a big responsibility to how much a male is used". Pauliina do you think it might work now?

[Dee Rance]

Well Henk I think that something aught to be done to make sure that dogs are not used just for financial gain. Lets face it that is the only reason for the over use of dogs, it does the breed no good. As for the problems that could arise from over use I think that we are seeing them now, rearing their ugly heads.

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

Wanted to reply to Dee - no reply-button came up - try it this way. Approved bitches is the next problem: it means different things in different countries to get a dog or bitch into the stud book. The requirements differ so much it is not funny. I can only say what approved means to me - and all my dogs have that: they are DNA-tested, have the CLAD, PRA, and the IRWS also vWD and PPC done, they are hip scored and in the future the elbows will be scored and the thyroid will be checked. Further they all have either a junior field trial or the test for natural instincts or both, the older ones the working trial for British pointing dogs. If My dogs are to mate a bitch I request all the health checks and either the junior FT or the 'Wesenstest'. Other than that it is a thanks, but no thanks. And I do not care who comes and asks.

[Pauliina Artiola]

Henk; I think that the matadors of past years and this time are obviously seen in pedigrees and no-one can shut their eyes from that.

If I think that male owners should carry more responsibility (along with the breeders) it is actually not my fault if it doesn`t happen in the real world, now is it? ;)) Dee said it very well in the end of her post. Couldn`t agree more.

But again if we`d stick at the topic;
As long as the male owners are deciding where to send the semen and who would be able to use it and to wich bitch I see this method more a possibility than a threat. But just like in normal matings and maybe using fresh chilled semen shipped to your country there is no idea in getting new bottlenecks in our breed as we already have enough ot those.

[Dee Rance]

Yes I agree as to the criteria for your 'approval' but I have found out lately that the PRA. DNA test should be qualified as to ''RCD1'' this is the early onset PRA and then there are at least two more types of PRA, so we all have a lot more research and responsibility, before we can say these things are being eradicated. Also with some of the breeding policies of some breeders, there are new things coming to the for everyday.
In the UK the 'Stud book' number is acquired by the dog winning either a JW or 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in Limit and Open, at a championship show, so really doesn't mean much, its mostly luck.
I have found that most people wouldn't even look for the kind of things that you are asking for, they just look to see if you have enough money to pay them, (you really don't want to get me on that subject!!!).
But that said perhaps if there were more people like you owning the stud dogs there wouldn't be so many problems, things will still happen but the likes of you will be diligent about them, good luck to you and yours.

[Merete & Thomas]

Hi Silvia :)
As a newbeginner in the IRWS world, I just wonder what PRA vWD and PPC is. I am not so familiar with the english (?) terms.

Best regards
Merete

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

http://irishsetterhealth.org/
on this website you will find all the explanations to your questions about vWD, PRA, CLAD,..
PPc I think is not there, but there is another link:
http://www.flourishingfairies.co.za/PPCgeneral.htm

Cheers
Silvia

[Gennadi]

Henk,

Family means the number of dogs that go from one particular bitch.
Line is same as above, but from not bitch, but dog.
So what d'you mean by family?

My point is high COI is bad, but very low COI is bad too, especially when you take one dog from 70 years isolated group and try to mate it with a bitch from another isolated group. My qoute was about it. It's not so easy and result is unknown.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Gennadi, "Families" is the term the late UK bloodlines-expert W.J. Rasbridge uses in "The Ancestry of the Irish Setter" published in Our Dogs, November 2, 1934.

He mentions at that point in history: 1) The Muskerry family sub-divided into a) Young Phil line; b) Royal Sovereign line; 2) The Ossory family sub-sivided into a) Clancarty Rhu and b) Ponto; 3) Ch Peaceful Times family; 4) Ch Ravenhill Phil family; 5 Ch Palmerston family.

You see, he uses "family" for dogs here. The term "family" may lead to misinterpretations here, it deals with direct tail male lines, likewise direct tail female lines. So different from yours.

It is an indication of variation in the breed. In 1980, he mentions 2 as still existing 1) Padriac of Matsonhouse sub-divisions a) Ch Wendover Beggar and b) Sh Ch Hartsbourne Tobias plus 2) Watendlath Joa O'Pandy.

All back in direct tail male line to Ch Clancarty Rhu, (one- Joao in doubt) who was bred in Holland named Castor before being exported to the UK. This shows a huge narrowing of direct tail male lines.

Dee can you specify your observation "As for the problems that could arise from over use I think that we are seeing them now, rearing their ugly heads."?

[Dee Rance]

Hi Henk
I think that the problems are, that if you keep using one dog on many many bitches, especialy if there is a high persentage of COI in the breeding, ie he is the brother of the bitch.....he is also the farther of the stud dog, and then you go on and use him on the offspring, and he was fairly in-breed. Then you are going to find that problems that were contained in a ''resesave'' gene will ultimatly come out in the offspring....there is a greater chance that the same gene is in many other bitches, because they too contain some of the same dogs in their lines, and they will then produce more cariers and more affected animals of whatever problem there are.
PRA was thought to be eradicated, but I remember speaking to Rasbridge when it came back again, it was at that time I was first looking for a stud dog. Early 70's it was a very difficult time, and I have to say that most people at the time 'put their hands up' to the fact that they had a problem, I don't think that it would be the case now, I think that it all went back to one popular dog he was used many times, the result speaks for itself.....(just my opinion)
Now we have PRA, (three different types) CLAD... BLOAT (which never went away) and I am sure that there will be others...You can't keep breeding close relitives to each other and not have a problem espesially if you don't know what the problems are in the far distant past, 6 or 7 generations, it is like feeding herbivores meat...Mad cow Desiese...(?) CJD.
I am just learning the basics of genetics. I mean basics.