Over trimming or shaving of the Show Irish Red Setter?

[Carmel Murphy]

I would like to know the opinion of all show people on the over shaving(trimming) of the setter? I was very surprised to see that trimming is actually mentioned in the AKC breed standard (coat section)"Trimming is done to preserve the natural appearance of the dog" How over trimming or shaving can preserve a natural look is quite puzzling to me!!!! I make my dogs as neat as possible for shows with a scissors or hand plucking but never put a blade near them!! I think that over grooming is quite the opposite of the natural appearance!! I believe over trimming/grooming makes setters look a bit like cardboard cut outs,not real dogs!!!!!!!!

[Lauwers Willem & Aleksandra]

i once used a clipper on neck from my dog, as all week before a show was sick and didin't feel like being busy with scissors over his coat. Remember late Mr D.Christian giving him lower place just because of that, he loved the dog so much just couldn't stand the trimming:) so i learnt my lesson.
Anyway yesterday was looking at Westminster videos, lovely to see perfect groomed dogs and so good handlers with them, indeed i would say things are so different between 'us' and 'them', don't say which trimming school and look is better ,it is what you chose for and what you are growing up with.Surely many of us if living from born in States, Canada; Australia would possibly chose for this types and vice versa. But for ex.many of us love hamburgers or different fast foods as well, so there are things we love from different countries, i actualy love english type dogs but hate FISH AND CHIPS and FRIED SCAMPIS.
As for me i do love well grommed dogs with lovely shinny dark coats, dont like to short trimmed ears at all, love the natural ear look but with bit shorter trimming than american style. Do like my dogs being prepared for a show, even if i hear they should be done shorter, i love also coat motion on a dog while seeing him on the ring moving.
As for daily care i do a lot to keep their coat in good condition, and it is not only brushing dirty dry coat after a walk, but it is possible to combine a show scene with daily free running .

[Melinda Auld]

I think, if you're very careful, clipping can be done without the dog ending up looking like they've been shaved "to the skin." I also understand that if you don't like clipping, you will never agree.

Here in Australia, it is common to use clippers on the necks. I always make sure to use a longer length on my blade, so I never take off more coat than is necessary (feel free to browse my photos to see the end result - I would not consider my dog over-groomed or sculptured. I certainly don't take a ruler to his coat, and I take off length only as a means of keeping the ends neat. I work hard to maintain an English-style look in a very pro-American-type environment. I am always over-joyed to be complimented by judges who tell me how much they love and have missed the "older" style Setters). It took a lot of trial and error, but I know now the length of blades my boy needs so that he doesn't end up looking like he's lost a battle with a lawn-mower. I also use the thinning scissors on the sides of his neck and shoulders - a trick I'm still getting the hang of, but finally coming close to a look I like for Fionn.

I have to admit, I love a clean neck on an Irish - but that doesn't mean it should be shaved to the last millimetre. There should at least still be COAT on the neck! I have also been lucky in that Fionn's coat has never changed colour from clipping. I would personally LOVE to take the feathering off his ears, but it's not the fashion here. I try to keep his ear feathering trimmed neatly and fairly short (compared to the US-type dogs) as a compromise. I love the detail that is brought out in the head when the feathering is removed from the ears. In the end, however, you groom to bring out the best in your dog, according to what suits your tastes and your location. Some love the sculptured look, some prefer as natural as possible. Sometimes, "natural" is a matter of judges' perception...which was perhaps the catalyst for over-sculpting in the breed in the first place. The best-groomed dog is not necessarily the best-built dog, but it is very easy to be beguiled by great grooming. I have often wondered what the results would be if the same dogs came into the ring without any grooming at all.

[Dee Rance]

I agree with you, I too like a clean neck (but not scalped) I like the ears with some hair on them, (have done the shaved look on the ears) but with a bitch it softens the expression with some hair on the ears, and going to a show just after clipping the neck is a recipe for disaster, saying that ''Keep practising Aleksandra'', practice makes perfect, and that is it in a nutshell, practice....and practice on something that isn't going into the ring, and then not too much damage can be done. I did like the comment on the picture that Susan put on this discusion, and she was told that a little bit more trimming would make him look much better, (DON'T AGREE, HE ALWAYS LOOKS PERFECT TO ME) but with your hectic life you may find it easier if you use clippers, it is much quicker, try again, but not on him.......until you have it down pat...
I think in UK we strive to get the 'natural' look, we all have our own idea as to what that is, and it does take a long time to get it rite, I dare say that the people who shave and measure (I have to say I have never heard of that before, what do they measure??) think that their dogs are the best groomed, its horses for courses, and I think that I was told, many many discussions ago that this is for the 'extreme' trimming and shaving, and it doesn't look like any of us go to extremes.....And I would like to think that our dogs look GREAT!!!!!

[Rosie Dudley]

I think there should be a class for totally untrimmed dogs, that would sort out the judges !

[Dee Rance]

And perhaps without their usual handlers that would really put the cat among the pigeons most of them wouldn't know who belonged to whom....I think that I would like to enter that class....

[Catherine Carter]

me too,I would enter!!

[Susan Morriss]

Oh I say Dee, what do you mean......................! :)
Well you'd better come under me then, however, be prepared for an honest opinion, like it or not.
I was accused of looking misurable by one exhibitor last year when I judged, because I did not smile at her.
'Strange' as this might seem, I am actually looking at the dogs when I judge not up the lead. I was also asked: 'Didn't you know it was me handling in the challenge', I was so taken aback I could not reply to her..

[Carmel Murphy]

Oh me too!! I would love all dogs natural with neutral (unknown) handlers!! That would be an interesting show!! There are good judges out there but also a lot of "political" judges too;o))
Glad you are not one of them Susan!!;o)

[Susan Morriss]

Probably why I don't get asked too often.........! :)

[Alison and Kevin Cooper (HUGARED)]

Whilst I realise there are different grades to clipping at the moment I wouldn't clip my setters for show cos I just haven't got enough courage. I'm sure deep deep down it would be fine but when I have mentioned it to showing aquaintances they have said absolutely no don't go there. So Dee I just might take you up on your offer if that's OK and come and meet you at crufts to have a looksee. I would like to meet you anyway cos you sound very sensible and nice. Being relatively new to the showing game I am very interested in the varied opinions of what others do. I too prefer a bit of hair on the ears, infact I like long ears to on my dog who I don't show.

[Alison and Kevin Cooper (HUGARED)]

P. S.
Thank you Susan.

[Dee Rance]

Well thanks for that Alison I think I am just getting old....and a little senile, but yes do come and look at my girl.....be glad to see you at Crufts..
As for the ''new show'' hey perhaps we could start a trend, has anyone ever had anything to do with 'cat' shows they are SUPPOSED to be neutral, But in the words of George Orwell, ''Everyone is equal but, some are more equal than others''.....I know that is Communism, but hey it fits.
Perhaps Susan that is why I haven't been asked to judge too often either, I don't look at the handlers just the dogs, strange concept at a dog show I know, perhaps I should have taken the other end of the lead into account more....then I could be an expert in the breed instead of just an also-ran. I have to say that I think that it is the best way, (not judging the lead)....but it doesn't get you anywhere in judging!!! :-))
Susan smile....and then you will remember who is in the line-up, Perhaps it is all connected....Just joking....so will you judge the new show for us?????