AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter

[Henk ten Klooster]

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC.Controversy...

[gerardmirck]

Ja dit is gvd te gek voor woorden.
Uit onderzoek blijkt dat andere Rood/Witte wel door de AKC zijn geregistreed.
Zij hebben immers het zelfde bloed notabene.
Maar hoe kun je die gasten dat nu duidelijkmaken.
Er gaat weer een pup naar America hopelijk zien ze dit wel over het hoofd
Groet Gerard

[Londa Warren]

This interests me but I'm an ugly American who speaks only American! Would someone please translate for me? Thank you!

Londa Warren, Edmond, OK

[gerardmirck]

Londa ,
It's say that is very wrong of the AKC to put Harry out AKC.
Other R/W are in there pedigrees have the same grandt grandt parents.
So there are NOOOOO ! differents between these Red and Whites.
THe story is Reds built up Red and Whites.
AKC see this as different dogs.
Read pedigrees on the www.wroxhamgundog site
Regards Gerard

[Fiorella Mathis]

In my humble opinion (let's not start now from Adam and Eve again please....) I think that FCI overlooked that Harry was first generation IS with IRWS spots...having the Dutch Kennel Club given him the IRWS pedigree status. He is, and remains, an IS with IRWS spots. All countries members of the FCI should produce a pedigree of at least 4 generations of the same breed to have the pup recognized in such a breed.
There are also in other breeds puppies born with different colors coat from parents who are pedigree parents and these puppies are not in the breed standard (like a dalmatian with lemon spots) and also these cannot have a pedigree. So at this point Harry not only shouldn't have the IRWS pedigree, but he should have no pedigree at all. This by regulations. And the AKC has very well acted in refusing Harry and his descendants. Now that he is a good worker, or a nice dog or a friendly dog or whatever has really no legal importance...he is siring for the first 3 generations mixed setters and this just for a mistake from which I understand there is no more return.
Fiorella Mathis
United Spots, Rome Italy

[Henk ten Klooster]

Its a surprise to see Adam and Eve entering this discussion.

Whether or not we are still suffering from the forbidden apple eating scene is not the focus of this topic, it is whether or not the AKC is right or wrong in stripping a winning red and white Irish setter from the registry who is a succesfull sire of winning field trial red and white Irish setters in Ireland, FCI and Irish Kennel Club registered. See for a report on the winningest last one www.Iersesetter.com click White memories of times goneby.

On this list before was the discussion on "White on red do you hate it or love it". It was a proven unchallenged point in that discussion that many judgements of even certified showjudges were wrong regarding white on red. This clear list of lack of knowledge makes it possible, that again a decision is made, based on lack of knowledge.

As for statements of Fiorella Mathis. 1) I think that FCI overlooked that Harry was first generation IS with IRWS spots...having the Dutch Kennel Club given him the IRWS pedigree status. He is, and remains, an IS with IRWS spots.
It is hardly possible that the FCI overlooked this fact, all of the registry before was Irish setter, red with or without white. Do you think they lost sight of their unique selling point, that is registry?
2) So at this point Harry not only shouldn't have the IRWS pedigree, but he should have no pedigree at all. This by regulations
What regulations say an Irish setter with white should have no pedigree at all??? Please provide these regulations. Near to 100% of Irish setters (red) have forebearers being a shower of hail, white on red, red on white, near to white etc. All in recent history of last half century. Should we also -in your opinion- undo their registry????? In that case: no Irish setter left.
3) Now that he is a good worker, or a nice dog or a friendly dog or whatever has really no legal importance...he is siring for the first 3 generations mixed setters and this just for a mistake from which I understand there is no more return
What mistake???? What is your definition of "mixed setters"???

[Londa Warren]

I'm completely lost here! So Harry is an Irish Setter in the eyes of the FCI, not an Irish Red & White Setter. Why can he not be registered as what he is - Irish Setter?

Was he from an FDSB-only IS litter in the USA? Or AKC? Or both? If he was from AKC parents, he can certainly be registered as an Irish Setter here. And if the sire and dam were dual registered in both the FDSB and AKC, he still can be registered in either registry. If his parents were FDSB only, then he's up a creek as far as AKC registration is concerned.

Just because an Irish Setter has a lot of white on him does not make him an IRWS, does it? If so, then the whole theory of the two being separate breeds is blown out of the water!

So to my way of looking at this, it depends upon what registry his parents were in. Am I anywhere near accurate?

And does anybody want to share a photo of Harry?

Londa

[Henk ten Klooster]

Londa its no wonder getting completely lost in Harry’s story. So just a few facts to provide some light in darkness of world dog politics:

1) Harry is European bred. Three quarters of his pedigree is pure Irish (Von Royal and Sheantullagh both via Moanruad (John Nash). One quarter is Danish – Lasse with interestingly beneath old Scandinavian lines Sulhamstead in as well. Lasse was one of the best all round hunting dogs of Denmark.

2) Mirck is not the breeder of Harry, but the owner/trialer. He was bred by Joop Harms. The rest of the litter was predominantly red, some with a big white blaze. Harms became fed up with the Irish setter scene after some conflicts with the show-fancy and stepped over to the English setter-scene, a breed with a lot of colors and much more chances of success.

3) More Irish setters in Harms one and only litter of Irish setters were succesfull – like Revolution (called Red) owned by Rembrandt Kersten who wrote a book published in spring last year and died in autumn. In it, Kersten opposed against separation of a breed on the basis of colors and attacked the UK show scene breeding in his eyes “Saint Bernard sized” red and white Irish setters. A sister of Harry, an allround hunting dog called Grouse was bred from, descendants registered as Irish red setter.

4) Harry was not the first red and white setter from red parents. In his first litter, Mirck bred Pallas Green Athena, also a red and white from red parents. Her FCI registry as Irish red and white setter was made possible under more by cooperation of Patricia Brigden, author of the only book about IRWS mainly interested in show. In the UK, there were Harry-scenes as well, compared to Harry not openly published but sneaky, you had to read about it between the lines of show reports of Gilbert Leighton-Boyce. Irish red setters were used for the UK IRWS.

5) You make a point in saying this blows the theory of two separate breeds out of the water. Since registry of IRS, there were and still are IRWS born, likewise shower of hails, white and reds, near to whites etc. A lot of them were and are hidden, given away, quite a few victims of a seek and destroy selection, mainly but not only in show scenes. I’ve seen a lot of blazed Irish setters (ok in all standards!) “disappearing”. Interestingly this practice was not the rule in fields, the only reason why Irish red and white setters still exist. AM FCH Sulhamstead Norse d’Or main forebearer of working red setters in the USA, was blazed as well. In his pedigree there were Menaifrons ....O’Moy known to throw all colors (especially shower of hails).

6) Harry flew over to the USA siring one litter. Thats where the AKC registry enters. He and his descendants were stripped much later from the registry. Here is a lot of darkness – a reason to start a topic here. He was the first Dutch bred setter to win a field trial in the USA, during the celebration of the centennial of the National Red Setter Field Trial Club in a walking stake confined to red and white Irish setters.

7) Harry went to Ireland for siring more litters, as well two of his offspring –dog and bitch bred by Mirck out of Craigrua Goldie- went from the Netherlands to Ireland. One –the bitch Harriet- was a star in trials. A keyrole in this was played by Jim Sheridan, breeder of Craigrua’s, who was before the one and only to fulfill a complete scheme of breeding working red Irish setters (most with a known history of throwing white) to red and white Irish setters.

Hopefully this provides some more fuel for thoughts. I see this topic is broadening from whether or not the AKC was right in stripping Harry from the registry into is it right or wrong to divide a breed on the basis of colors, where it is and was practice that red and whites are born from reds and vice versa? I appreciate views on both.

[Ann Millington]

Replying to your points
3) How did Rembrandt Kersten come to the false statement that UK breeders were breeding "St Bernard size" IRWS? Had he been to many UK shows, measured the dogs and made himself known to breeders?
Although there is no height in the UK breed standard, the dogs are measured out of the showring and fall within the range of the height standard of the FCI - this aspect of the breed is closely monitored.

4) Indeed Pallas Green Athena and her brother were red & whites from red parents - in Belgium before Harry. Patricia Brigden had NOTHING to do with the registratin of these puppies - they were registered with the Belgian KC & FCI by their owner on the 'B' register because they were not 'real' IRWS.
You are absolutely WRONG, Henk, about UK breeding of IRWS. Only one cross-breeding was carried out sneakily by Field Triallers in 1985 registering the two red & white pups with the IKC and 'importing' them. This outraged the IRWS community and the Irish Setter community. I should add that there was a lot of opposition in those days to IRWS from the UK Irish Setter folks -fearing a 'contamination' of their breed. All IRWS litters had been inspected for registration first and still are.
As for Gilbert Leighton-Boyce... I knew him well and corresponded with him on many topics. He never once voiced the opinion you state here!

5) This sounds like you consider colour to be the only difference between the two breeds. This is not so - they are different in conformation and temperament - as anyone who has the two breeds together will tell you.

6) & 7).... Sounds like 'bragging'.......

There is doubt cast upon the theory that Irish Setters were developed from IRWS and visa versa - I heard it in Ireland. The current theory is that they have always been two separate breeds.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ann, heres a few quick reactions on your points. Do not confuse this with my opinion, facts provided are opinions of those quoted.

3) The statements of Rembrandt Kersten are published in the book “Hond Staat” (Dog Points), the first book in Dutch dealing with (mainly) working Irish setters. More about that on www.Iersesetter.com menu Youth near a river inspires working setter book.
The quote comes from pp 176, a quick translation: “During one of my travels through England I visit a big show in Birmingham. I read in the catalogue in what ring Irish red and white setters are shown. Arrived over there I see a negative development. I become aware that, under a new standard, a breed has been created that in some cases looks more like a Saint Bernard than a hunting dog.” More about Harry is on pp 177 & 178.

4) Source: showreport National Gundog, judge Gilbert Leighton-Boyce in Our Dogs 1984: (puppy) “2.Rankin Whisper , rather less mature b. but so attractive, I learnt afterwards, introduces some unusual breeding.”
5) As for differences in temperament and conformation – the standard for working for IRS and IRWS is nearly the same. Lines of winningest working IRS and IRWS as well.

You statement:
“There is doubt cast upon the theory that Irish Setters were developed from IRWS and visa versa - I heard it in Ireland. The current theory is that they have always been two breeds”.

Any student of pedigrees can document that IRS and IRWS plus some other color variations come from the same families.

[Ann Millington]

Henk, I think Mr Kersten is not an authority on IRWS - he should have seen many more IRWS before seeing "negative development."
4) You are deluding yourself if you think that 'reading between the lines' of a show critique on one puppy in 1985 is evidence that Irish Setters were used in UK IRWS. The Lennoxbank 2 puppies were the only crosses registered since 1984 - I keep the Database of all the IRWS registered since 1979 in the UK.
5) Even the working standards of the two breeds are as you say only nearly the same. The conformation of the two breeds is very different and the temperament and behaviour of the two breeds is even more unalike. .. as those who keep both breeds will afirm.

[terry o leary]

Hello Ann you state that Only one cross-breeding was carried out sneakily by Field Triallers in 1985 registering the two IRWS pups with IKC and importing them.Lets get the facts right,the person who organised the transport of the owners of the two pups was Mrs Ann Gormley the President of the GB IRWSC. Mrs Gormley drove Mrs Laura Dunne to Pointer and Setter Show to meet Mrs Cuddy so the ladies could inspect the pups.I remember it so well as Mrs Cuddy asked my opinion of the pups and I stated that I thought that they were good examples of the breed.The registration of the pups was done in accordance with Irish Kennel Club rules.I dont consider this was done sneakily,it was out in the open for all to see.This did not outrage to the IRWS community or to the IRS Club in Ireland at that time.I cant speak for GB but I know the breeding was used by GB breeders.Re the two breeds theory I dont know any IRWS owners who would support this theory.Mrs Cuddy always said there was only one Irish Setter.In regards to Harry and his use as an IRWS stud dog that is up to each person to decide.I have not used him I dont plan to use him.I cant comment on him as a working dog as I have never seen him work.When he was in Ireland it was kept very quiet and I did not know he was here till after he left.Terry

[Ann Millington]

Hi Terry - the implication 'sneaky' was Henks, not mine (see point no. 4 of his long reply to Londa) It might well not have outraged the Irish people - but it did the UK people both IS and IRWS - because it was done behind their backs - hence the names Secret of Lennoxbank and Whisper of Lennoxbank.... with your support, Mrs Cuddy's, Laura Dunne's and Ann Gormley's and the reciprocal agreement with the IKC is it any wonder that they were used in some breeding in the 1980s?
I'm a bit surprised you haven't seen Harry working in Continental Europe, because Henk and Gerard are very proud of his performances and you do go over there to judge Field Trials, don't you? Did he not have an opportunity to run in Ireland, then?.... so that more people could see him?
I totally agree with you that it is up to breeders to decide which stud dog to use... and not be pressured into using any one dog - particularly one unseen.