Dr.J.Bell and Dr.J.Armstrong's articles.

[Gennadi]

Sure some of you know these articles some do not.

http://www.gocco.co.za/dr_j_bell.htm
http://www.gocco.co.za/dr_j_armstrong.htm

[Gennadi]

And about these Gordons you've seen. It's justa not good hunting dogs I guess, that's it. Allmost no one show-bred owner wants to work with their setters in fileds today and to breed dual dogs. Otherwise we'd see complitely different story.

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Although these show Gordons were slow and this up and down rocking movement, some of them were quite well trained, and probably could have found and handled birds given time. But they were severely handicapped by their physical incapacity to run in heather on a hillside
There was one very good show bred Gordon owned by Jane Osborne who won an Open Stake in Scotland this year , but she runs more like the working setters, level back ,

[Gennadi]

I heard a lot about J.Osborne, but in Italy there are hundreds of such Gordons today. If you look at video World Cup 2006 in Italy, you'll see this kind of dual Gordon behind pointer, he lost Final to English Pointer, but he got to Final anyway. The friend of mine, he and his wife are FCI judges, got 2 dual Gordons from Italy - it's strongest d*mn macines I've ever saw, that breaks trees in the wood, when he runs for the woodcock!

What about Wolf Loop, every IRS that in exterior standart has to do it, when runs very slow, but when IRS runs very fast his back looks o'key. Don't worry ;)
But problem is not in this style in this case, problem that since aprx 1880-90 very light bone working IRS appeared and most of the experts of the time told it was not good, right IRS setter is very strong and pretty much dog with bone!
But now Ray O'Dwyer is sure it was the only right red dog, he shows IRS from Norway in his book that looks like he gonna dead next step %).
Modern dual IRS is very tall dog, 67 cm is too much, they have to be 62-64 max with the same weight of about 25-28 kg.
When we select this kind of dog from modern duals, they will bit modern trial dogs just like that.
Unfortunatly most of working red dog breeders lost the sence of reality today.

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

"I heard a lot about J.Osborne, but in Italy there are hundreds of such Gordons today"

You surprise me! I know the Ivaldis, but can you name a few more people who are breeding working Gordons in Italy

[Gennadi]

I will ask Sergey and Katja about it, they know everything about modern Gordon, but their choice was Gordon's from Italy, not from Norway for instance, where Gordon doesn't look like real Gordon at all.

[Jocelyn Ness]

There are an increasing number of 'dual purpose' Gordons in UK and those with them are working hard to improve. Jane Osborn is one who has had success with her dogs, as is Jean Collins, breeder of the only Dual Champion Gordon Setter. Sylvia and Nicky Ackerley and Tilly Thomas have also achieved in both Field and Show, while regularly efficiently counting and working their Gordons. I have an Amscot dog who has his KC Working Certificate and has proved his ability in the field, showing great speed and a good nose. I now have a puppy out of Jane's Boyers Sedge by Amscot Dramatist (who won an award in a puppy stake), who is already showing potential at 6 months old. I would agree that pure working Gordons definitely tend to show greater style, heart and commitment, but I wouldn't dismiss all others regardless.
Jocelyn Ness

[Gennadi]

Nice to hear that real Gordon's are still exist and increasing in number!

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

One can learn a lot from people like Jane Osborne and Jean Collins. Jane Osborne has worked really hard at breeding and training dual purpose Gordons for over 20 years.
There are too many owners of show bred setters whose ancestors havent worked or been bred for working ability for seventy years of more, who still believe that if only their dogs had the opportunity to work, they could still do it.
Some of the Gordon people who work and show their dogs, know that they have to breed for both. One doesnt just take any show Gordon, give it a few weeks training, and turn up at a field trial with it. They pick their dogs carefully, choose the ones with working ability as well as show conformation, continue to breed on from dual dogs, and work hard at training them. It took twenty years to get that first dual champion (and Jane Osborne had such bad luck not to make up Portroyal Swirl of Boyers).
It didnt happen overnight!
They have also bred down the size, ten years ago the show Gordons seen at field trials were bigger and slower - I can remember when other field triallers would suggest the Gordon handlers put a saddle on their dogs and ride them! Now they have medium sized dogs who run and manage the terrain better, and who have been bred from other dogs who have been field trialled
And maybe they had the advantage that some of the show Gordons still had some working instinct left which could be built on

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

" 'The line of the back remains as close to horizontal as possible' is one of important characteristics of English Setter, not IRS."

No, its a characteristic of efficient fast running pointing dogs, bobbing up and down with a slow rocking horse movement isnt

[Gennadi]

I can only say watch more Animal Planet or such. No one wild dog or wolf runs this way, they all "bobbing up and down" including hyenas. Modern field trial style was human invention and man's wish and got nothing in common with physical laws and wild life.
I have to repeat it again, at the very beggining, when the first standart appeared all IRS run showing wolf loop and hold their heads at the line of back or lower.
Originators wanted their dogs to be the best in fields, that's why they began select dogs with back remains horizontal and heads up, but if for English Pointer this style is dominant, for IRS this style is recessive and it's allmost impossible to get homozygous red dogs having ideal style. Every litter shows only a few puppies 1 or 2 that could show good style in future.
Other words I could say this is monkey business.
Moreover when IRS Club published this working style in 2002, I feel they tried to legalize wrong exteriour of modern working dogs also, because working standart describe not only style, but dog ears position on point for instance.

[Laura Kolbach]

I don't want to join this discussion as my knowledge is not enough for it.
Just a short note, Gennadi. Again, if you are not fully aware of a dog (as last time with the Karmino-dog), please do not comment on it. I don't think that you've been told that the EP is a FTCh, as she is not. But she is an excellent working dog with a very good nose who was for example placed 2nd at the World Cup in Belgium last year. I see this pointer at work every weekend and please don't tell me or anybody else that she is not efficient.
Also, have you ever thought of that Petra loads up those videos only where IS Andy is the star (which is totally ok, as she wants to show us how her dog is - being a setter forum, not a pointer forum)? This does not mean that the EP won't find any birds during the training.
Sorry, just had to write this down as I don't think you are fair to this pointer.

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

There was actually something slightly odd about that video. The dogs seemed to be finding birds and pointing (and the pointer was backing) , but then were dropped, without a bird being flushed? One wasnt even sure if they had found birds or were false pointing, as no birds were seen