Dr.J.Bell and Dr.J.Armstrong's articles.

[Gennadi]

Sure some of you know these articles some do not.

http://www.gocco.co.za/dr_j_bell.htm
http://www.gocco.co.za/dr_j_armstrong.htm

[Gennadi]

And a little bit more

http://www.filadog.com/evangelizing_canine_genetic_dive.htm

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Thanks. Hellmuth Wachtel is a distinguished contributor to the Canine Genetics list, which is well worth joining for some excellent debate and information on whats happening in the world of canine genetics. The message of the list is about maintaining diversity and healthy dog breeding. Sadly John Armstrong who started the list is no longer alive

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Canine-Genetics/

[ursula wilby]

Reading all these articles (and the different threads) on breeding, it makes me want to stop alltogether. Especially when it comes to my french bulldog Ines (who should - if I take everything to heart - not be bred from as a breed anyhow).
I have chosen a male with 0% inbreeding, but that of course is worked out over a 5 generation-pedigree only. The problem is that there are plenty of (for instance) bulldogbreeders that dont even think about checking their stock for heart and patella (or anything else) and will breed anyhow.
(And yes, Ines and her proposed mate have both been checked and were free). So far the heart and patella is only a recommendation from the breedclub and leaves the door wide open for anyone to breed.

It is excellent to educate the breeders, but even better (or at least eqally as important) to educate the puppy-buyers. Without demands put on breeders by their "customers" very few may even consider changing.
And if more serious breeders will leave the scene...then the **** will hit the fan well and truly!

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

"Reading all these articles (and the different threads) on breeding, it makes me want to stop alltogether"

No, the articles are aimed at making people think about what they are doing, about breeding fit, healthy and functional dogs, not at stopping people from breeding dogs

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

According to the KC , judges are now being trained NOT to put up exaggerated dogs with visible defects which could affect their health. Good to hear, but whether it is really having any impact is something else

[Gennadi]

This is famous picture of Ch.Garryowen made in aprx. 1887.
Print it and ad more fur and you'll get exellent modern show-bred dog. Some time ago these dogs used as hunting dogs in UK also.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Back to basics is possible. Change as well - reread posts in topics like "Is the Irish setter a ruined breed?" and what some of you are writing now. Save our setters, time for a change!

[Gennadi]

What changes your talking about, Henk? To breed them with American trial red dogs? Outcross breeding, to add ES blood for instance? (sorry, I didn't read topic you mentioned)
Leen, your not right, hunting ability, this is the way to go first of all. Red dogs have to be put to their basics.
This is the task for national KC's or FCI.
In Finland for instance, national title could be given only to double champ in field and in ring and among IRS only one dog could get this title, but because field trial papers were not ready at the time this dog got show title only.
At the same time there are number breeds in the world today, that have plenty of national champs. Talking about pointing dogs one EP comes to mind, he was BIS in Austria at world show several years ago, a couple years later he got FTCh title.

[Vilja Vehkaoja]

At least in Finland I think the gap between the breeders of show bred setters and field setters is so deep, that at least the field type breeders have made it clear that they want nothing to do with the show lines. They could never imagine putting the two together. That's simply a result of their dogs getting better and better on the field... very small, very light boned with steep croups. They are getting faster and better, but all the time farther away from for example that photo from the 1880's. Farther away from the breed standard. And at the same time our show bred setters are adding the qualities they despise, such as coat, quarters and bone.
The two lines are soon to become two different breeds. Now would be the time to do something, but I'm afraid the two visions stand too far apart. There's no will to act. On either side.

[Gennadi]

The owner of my present dog father has imported dual IRS to Finland to one hunter near Vaalimaa. He told me later the dog beeing puppy yet was so good for moose to truck them!!!
Previously this hunter used to hunt with special moose dogs only.
I recomended to this hunter training the dog for birds first of all, pheasant and partrige (this is the common rule) and only then to use dog to any game he wanted, but to remember IRS is pointing dog anyway.
Probably we are lucky here in Russia, there is no difference between show bred, hunting and field trial dogs and we can hunt allmost all year round. Any dog can take part in any events.
And from my observation for last few years field trial dogs from US (Springset Gordons), EP's from Sweeden and UK, Gordons from Norway loose to hunting dogs in fields in general, because FTD are too light and too speedy, sometimes got no good nose, miss the birds etc. Even show-bred, dual dogs show better results in fileds sometimes, than FTD's ones.

There is good video from Petra: show-bred dual IRS vs field trial EP in Hungary. IRS found much more quails, than EP. Yes, IRS was pretty slow, his style is not so good, but result was clear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2BRHwLLZGM&feature=related

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

"There is good video from Petra: show-bred dual IRS vs field trial EP in Hungary. IRS found much more quails, than EP. Yes, IRS was pretty slow, his style is not so good, but result was clear."

No offence intended to the owner of this Irish Setter, whoever it is, but the running style of the dog is inefficient and completely unsuitable for field trials. He is very slow, moves like a slow rocking horse with up and down motion, wasting energy
Read the Irish working standard for the Irish setter
"In the gallop the head is carried above the line of the back, the line of the muzzle always parallel to the ground. The gallop is fast, flowing, free of obvious effort. The line of the back remains as close to horizontal as possible, due to the harmonious interaction of front and back legs."

If the dog moves like this on a level grass field, what would he be like on a boggy Irish mountain, on deep heather on a Scottish grouse moor, or the mountains of Scandinavia?
We had some show Gordons running in field trials in Scotland this year, who ran like this, in heather on a hillside they were struggling to run at all, and hadnt a chance against the FT bred dogs

[Gennadi]

Sorry, that's not true. Wolf slow style running is one of the most efficiant types of moving in space. Most of old time Russian experts(1880-1920) wrote, that IRS allways runs like wolf...
I guess this working standart is late post war Irish inventions. First of all 'The line of the back remains as close to horizontal as possible' is one of important characteristics of English Setter, not IRS.
Small light bone modern FT IRS do not have this style also. it's just a common style of running for all small dogs.
Then, from any agly hunter point of view this slow motion Petra's IRS is several times more efficient, than pointer in video. I've been told this EP is FTCh.

The TRUTH is somewhere in between, allways.