Dr Roger Mugford comments on the bbc

[neil selman]

On discussing the intelligence of dogs on the bbc this morning (9th August) Dr Roger Mugford when pressed on which breed was the thickest, replied the Irish Setter was mentioned, is this right? what do other Irish Setter owners think.

[Gennadi]

Plz give me the list of commands you work with your dogs. I bet you'll in trouble after point 10-15.
1. @Baby, come to mama!@ %)))

[Teresa]

A hunting dog doen't only need inteligence, it needs instinct... Border collies are considere the most inteligent right? Tell me when you last saw a BC hunting... And yet everybody agrees they are smart!
Show dogs may have less instinct and probaly are less trained...They're owners have diferent uses for them, but they show intelligence in diferent ways... You might have a great agility or obedience dog, that does not hunt at all... Is this dog stupid?
I agree that a hunting breed such the IRS should be able to hunt, it's only logical, but they do not choose the way they are selected... It would not help if your show dog tried to hunt down toy dogs or pidgeons (if you're outside), the same way it does not help that you're dog freezes during huntig, as it would be desirable with a judge near it.
It all comes down to the selection of the dog, you cannot blame it for not doing something he was not selected to.

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Yes, some successful obedience dogs are very stupid. They are simply very well trained by competent trainers to carry out commands, and often they are dogs with little natural instinct or drive, which actually makes them easier to train for mindless obedience. These dogs often like food and will do anything to earn a treat.
But that doesnt mean ALL successful obedience dogs are stupid. At the higher levels of obedien ce , for things like scent work, it helps to have a more intelligent dog

There are also some pretty stupid show bred dogs who can be trained to do the more basic working/hunting tests. Using obedience training methods , they can be trained to quarter ground mechanically ie they look like they are hunting for birds even if they have no hunting instinct. And they can be trained to sight point when they happen to see a bird a few feet in front of them when mechanically quartering. That doesnt make them a good working/hunting dog, they are simply well trained obedient dogs

[ursula wilby]

1. At heal
2. Sit
3. Lay down
4. Stay (in whatever position)
5. Stand (from distance with handsignal)
6. Lay-down (distance with handsignals)
7. Sit down (distance wioth handsignals)
8. Run in a straight line forward until given new directions
9. Stop at distance
10. Turn right at distance (handsignal)
11. Turn left at distance (handsignal)
12. Recall
13. Recall and stand
14. Recall and lay down
15. Retrieve
16. Let go of retrieving object
17. Search for specific item
18. Jump
19 Jump and sit directly afterwards
20. Jump and retrieve

I may have forgotten some...but the above are for obedience.
In my daily life we have a few more:

21. Recall without having to sit straight at left hand side
22. Out on the lead, come back in to left side but not in exact position.
23. Go away from table (but go where ever you please)
24. Go and lay down (in special place)
25. Stop barking
26. Walk on path only
27. Get out of field
28. Free...rush about as much as you want
29. Wistle = emidiate recall!

I know I may have forgotten a few...but this may give you an idea...and no, I dont hunt and my dogs are not from hunting stock!

And no Gennadi, I would never call myself a dogs "mama" I am a human and my dogs are dogs...But I am amazed that you would call yourself "mama"...you look rather masculine too me ...but perhaps the photo is deceiving? :-)

[Gennadi]

Ursula, I tried to calculate the number of commands I usually use at hunting including whistle and hand work and it's about 40 different commands.
Sometimes I don't need to use my hands, I give the direction by head turning or even by my eyes. Different type of whistle means different type of command. Long high pitch whustle means Come to Me, two short high pitch whistles - Change the direction of running, one very strong and high pitch whistle - Stay there you are. Low pitch one whistle - Retrieve etc.
My favorite command 'Show Me' and depends on situation dog could do it differently, I never learned dogs to do this command one way only. If on point, dog begins to walk around the bird. If dog is on point far away from me in several min dog come back to me and I follow him till he'll find the bird again and point it.

Hunting and training trains dog brain, I never kenneled my dogs and they live in my house, this is the key. Usually they bug my telephone calls and make some decissions even. If I talk about next day hunting with my friends, my present dog runs to the safe with guns and shows me he's ready to go hunting right now.
Ones, it was about 10 years ago, I had a talk with one client and he told me by phone he was going to buy a puppy from my dog, but my dog bugging this tel call decided I sold HIM ! He was like rock on carpet not moving and not listening no one command untill I figured it out and told him: Stupid, I sold your puppy, not you!
He began to run and to jump like puppy. It was something! Stupid dog! )))

[Kristina]

I have had only one dog, so I cant say how inteligent or not) are irish. Maybe in 20 years time. ;)) but
Gennadi, I have a question for you.
I have 3 years old IRS which I bought not for hunting, but as a companion. We dont hunt, she nor I have any interest in hunting.
My boyfriend is a hunter for 20 years and at the moment he owns a German Short-haired Pointing Dog who is 4 years old. He uses him only for hunting and the dog is very good at it. He is also very obidient - he will do what he is asked to do.

My irish and I do agility and tricks. Maybe that seems nonsense to you, but we like it. I use cliker for teaching new things (food also helps ;)) She quickly learns new stuff. I tried to teach boyfriends dog to do any trick (even the easiest ones like "give a paw" - every dog knows how to do that), but he just looks at me and does nothing. The same goes for everything else. He never shows in any way (for example barking) if he wants to eat, drink, to be peted etc. The most he can do is sitting by a person and looking at that person. Now it is up to that person to figure out what the dog wants. My irish girl on the other hand is very vocal - she tells (and also) shows me everything. I can tell if she wants to go for a walk, if she wants to play, if there is no water in the bowl etc, etc.

So we have two dogs: one is stricly hunting, but learning any new thing (that has nothing to do with hunting) is almost imposible. And there is Irish who does not hunt but learns new things quikly.

So which of the two dogs is stupid? Irish? German short haired? Both? Somehow I think I know the anwser. :-)) I shall repeat after the others: you can not judge a dog only by its ability to hunt. Some dogs have that instinct, some dont.

And another thing: you say you use 40 different commands when hunting with your dog. Why?? If dog is inteligent enough and has good hunting instinct, it doesnt need more than 4 or max 6 commands. I have been in the field with hunters and their dogs. The dogs know exactly what to do - they dont need 40 commands.

[Gennadi]

Probably your boyfriend's dog thinks something wrong with you, if you want to make him to do things he doesn't want. German shorthaired dog is very serious criter and if he doesn't like you or you're not his owner you'll never make him to do what you want, this dog belongs to owner only.

My daughter trained my dog to do so many different, funny and useless stuff it's amazing, but they are best friends.

4 or 6 commands at hunting is not enough for all type huntings with pointing dogs and personally I don't need dog who will hunt using his instincts only, this is wild dog. Retrieving ducks from water dog has to know at least 4 commands by hands and 4 commands by whistle.
So count right or take new hunting dog for yourself and try to train this dog and count commands you will use for that.

[Kristina]

Perhaps I havent been specifc enough: the dog does not give a paw to his owner as well. As if he doest know how to or what is asked of him. Or any other thing except obidience commands for that matter. He doesn't know the most simple things other dogs learn before you know it.

As for retrieving ducks from the water: sell your fairy tales to someone else, not me. My boyfriends dog retrievs ducks from the water as soon as the gun shot, he doesn't need any command. He seeks (if needed) and brings the duck to his owner and waits for the command to drop it. That is 1 command. That dog retrived at the age of 6 months and not being trained to retrive at all. He just has it in him.

I belive that you need many more commands when the dog doesn't have any hunting instinct and you have to learn him all. Im my opinion inteligence is when the dog does thing his own way, if he thinks that way is better. If not, than it is just a robot not thinking with his own head, but just obeying orders. That way you really must have thousant commands for just one simple task. I always thought dog and a hunter are partners, trusting each other, but not with you. You don't trust your dog, it seems to me like you don't want a dog, but a robot.

[Gennadi]

Sorry Kristina you boyfriend has to visit some sort of trials for retrieving ducks and look at right dogs and right owners. Retreiving just after shot without command is a big mistake.
Lets stop this talk untill you will take your own hunting dog and train it.

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Gennadi wrote "BTW, the most stupid among red's is show bred IRWS, that I saw personally, some of them really crazy and thick as a brick."

And I could tell you that the most intelligent dogs I have ever owned are two working bred IRWS, Pepperstown Polly and Rushfield Ruffle, both daughters of the same dog Rushfield Rascal., who was also highly intelligent

But that tells you nothing about the average intelligence of the breed, only that the Rushfield line of IRWS threw up some highly intelligent dogs.
Probably not accidental that their breeder John Kerr preferred intelligent working dogs to stupid ones :))

[Lauwers Willem & Aleksandra]

Huntingabilities don't have anything to do with intelligence, just a matter of instinct. Would more say obeing orders is even a lack of intelligence, not being capable to think by your own. Still have to meet the first huntingdog with a personality.
Isn't it said that a dog takes after his owner?? Be intelligent Gennaldi, get the picture!

[Margaret Sierakowski Dalriach IRWS]

Lauwers Wilhelm wrote
"Huntingabilities don't have anything to do with intelligence, just a matter of instinct. Would more say obeing orders is even a lack of intelligence, not being capable to think by your own"

I wouldnt agree with that at all. A good working setter needs to be intelligent as well as trained. You may be able to train a stupid dog to be obedient and to quarter ground mechanically, but you will get much better bird finding and handling from an intelligent dog