Hip Scoring in Irish Setters - Exclusively Setters2024-03-29T07:15:04Zhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/hip-scoring-in-irish-setters?commentId=865021%3AComment%3A166779&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI wonder if part of the probl…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-04-27:865021:Comment:1893062009-04-27T04:18:20.748ZMelinda Auldhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/MelindaAuld
I wonder if part of the problem stems from a view of "out of sight, out of mind." Unless a dog is actually symptomatic for HD, some people might be fooled into thinking all is well - and therefore not bothering to get the hips checked. And there are plenty of dogs with terrible scores who really never present with clinical signs of HD, or who don't present until old age takes its toll, and by then, the dog might have been bred many times. This is of course bad management on behalf of any…
I wonder if part of the problem stems from a view of "out of sight, out of mind." Unless a dog is actually symptomatic for HD, some people might be fooled into thinking all is well - and therefore not bothering to get the hips checked. And there are plenty of dogs with terrible scores who really never present with clinical signs of HD, or who don't present until old age takes its toll, and by then, the dog might have been bred many times. This is of course bad management on behalf of any breeder. How can one claim to have the breed's best interests at heart, and not check their breeding stock for every known problem?<br />
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I think it also pays to realise that ANY score beyond 0:0 <i>is</i> HD...the severity of the diagnosis depends on the extent to which the head of the femur sits outside of the hip, and the hip itself doesn't conform to the required shape. We can and should be be proud of GOOD scores, scores that are lower than the average, and we should aim to reproduce these low scores in every puppy...but we should never fail to lose sight of the fact that any score beyond 0 is proof of an imperfect hip.<br />
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I doubt a single gene will ever be found to be responsible for HD. The fact that two dogs with excellent scores can produce a pup with bad hips means that there is more at work than one solely-responsible gene. Polygenetics, diet, environment, nurture...all go into producing - and definitely exascerbating - the potential for a problem in any given dog. I think perhaps our quest to find the "responsible genetics" is potentially damaging, as it detracts from the search for other causes for the problem. Taking a leaf from Rachel Paige Elliot's teachings (thanks Myra for putting me onto her wonderful work!), perhaps we should be looking at the conformation of the Irish rear as a whole? Perhaps the angle of the pelvis is a factor? Perhaps the breed's slightly sloping topline is at fault? Who knows? But waiting for a magic pill to take the problems away is not conducive, IMHO, to an extensive search for a whole solution.<br />
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I also find it interesting that all the focus in the breed is on HD. Yes, this has been the problem to date. But without breeders also looking at elbows, how will we ever know if a problem is developing? When I had my dog scored, I was told not to bother looking at elbows as "there is no problem in the breed." Really? How do we know if we don't keep an eye on it? All it takes is for one dog (or bitch) with bad elbows to be used extensively, and suddenly, there's another problem...and no one will know about it because no one is looking at elbows. Perhaps this is paranoia or ignorance talking. But I'd rather be accused of paranoia than of putting another problem into the breed. Makes me very sad, seeing som…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-04-26:865021:Comment:1890382009-04-26T16:51:05.470ZKristina Brannlund Westinhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/ninalina
Makes me very sad, seeing some breeders taking huge risks when mating bitches with studdogs that have been involved with several cases of bad hips.Not just C or D but so bad as E and young dogs have been put to sleep because of it. Just wonder how someone can with this knowledge take such risk? Have been there myself and would never, ever even think about this seeing how much pain it can cause to the dog and the owner. Just wonder where the morality has gone?
Makes me very sad, seeing some breeders taking huge risks when mating bitches with studdogs that have been involved with several cases of bad hips.Not just C or D but so bad as E and young dogs have been put to sleep because of it. Just wonder how someone can with this knowledge take such risk? Have been there myself and would never, ever even think about this seeing how much pain it can cause to the dog and the owner. Just wonder where the morality has gone? OFA is actually an American r…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677912009-03-15T17:15:55.744ZHighfeatherhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Highfeather
OFA is actually an American registry but many of us in Canada use it. In Canada we also have the Ontario Veterinary College (Guelph) registry. They just recently put their database online but it is depending on owner permission and there are few dogs in the registry at this point. I tried to add two of my own dogs that were certified through Guelph back in the 80's but they were not able to add them right now, they said maybe in time they could add older results. So because of the newness and…
OFA is actually an American registry but many of us in Canada use it. In Canada we also have the Ontario Veterinary College (Guelph) registry. They just recently put their database online but it is depending on owner permission and there are few dogs in the registry at this point. I tried to add two of my own dogs that were certified through Guelph back in the 80's but they were not able to add them right now, they said maybe in time they could add older results. So because of the newness and incompleteness of OVC's online database, I am using OFA for my dog's certifications. There is also the incentive to get multiple tests done so dogs can be CHIC registered.<br />
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Wendy That is the one I ment, I cou…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677752009-03-15T17:05:02.456Zursula wilbyhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/mossby188
That is the one I ment, I could not make head or tail out of the canadian one as it did not have the "excellent" compared to anything else...although the one you posted, Susan is slightly out of date. Sweden is also using the FCI-grading now.<br />
But it DOES compare the A-B-C-system to "excellent" etc.
That is the one I ment, I could not make head or tail out of the canadian one as it did not have the "excellent" compared to anything else...although the one you posted, Susan is slightly out of date. Sweden is also using the FCI-grading now.<br />
But it DOES compare the A-B-C-system to "excellent" etc. Thanks Wendy, it is an inform…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677692009-03-15T17:01:13.394ZSusan Stonehttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/SwissSusan
Thanks Wendy, it is an informative site.<br />
Unfortunately the comparison chart comparing FCI letters to BVA figures is not correct. Maybe it is correct when comparing OFA to FCI or OFA to BVA, but not both...
Thanks Wendy, it is an informative site.<br />
Unfortunately the comparison chart comparing FCI letters to BVA figures is not correct. Maybe it is correct when comparing OFA to FCI or OFA to BVA, but not both... Is this the one you meant Urs…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677662009-03-15T16:55:30.925ZSusan Stonehttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/SwissSusan
Is this the one you meant Ursula? This is from the belgian irish setter website. I don't think it came from me originally, as the swiss figures are not correct... our system is also based on A B etc.
Is this the one you meant Ursula? This is from the belgian irish setter website. I don't think it came from me originally, as the swiss figures are not correct... our system is also based on A B etc. I agree with what you say,Cam…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677622009-03-15T16:53:05.847ZSusan Stonehttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/SwissSusan
I agree with what you say,Camilla. Only sometimes I think passing on the information via the breed clubs is just not enough. The information re HD has been there for all to see for many years now. But as long as there is no 'code of ethics' that practically forces breeders to x-ray their dogs, then there will always be too many people saying 'if he moves right, he can't have a problem'... until they see him no longer moving at 6-8 years due to arthritic pain caused by HD... And here I'm only…
I agree with what you say,Camilla. Only sometimes I think passing on the information via the breed clubs is just not enough. The information re HD has been there for all to see for many years now. But as long as there is no 'code of ethics' that practically forces breeders to x-ray their dogs, then there will always be too many people saying 'if he moves right, he can't have a problem'... until they see him no longer moving at 6-8 years due to arthritic pain caused by HD... And here I'm only talking of the individual dog, not his progeny. As you say, looking at progeny and siblings would be even more important.<br />
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Other breeds can do it so why can't we??? Look at Gordon Setters in the UK - they seem to have a system that works. Not many litters are advertised without the hip score of both parents being published.<br />
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Yes, it would certainly be great if whole litters where scored but I think to start with at least ALL BREEDING STOCK must be scored. Thanks Kirsty, I found this v…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-15:865021:Comment:1677562009-03-15T16:39:54.985ZSusan Stonehttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/SwissSusan
Thanks Kirsty, I found this very interesting and have added it to 'favourites'.
Thanks Kirsty, I found this very interesting and have added it to 'favourites'. See the bottom of this page f…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-14:865021:Comment:1672942009-03-14T19:05:58.957ZHighfeatherhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Highfeather
See the bottom of this page for the comparison chart for various hip registries:<br />
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<a href="http://offa.org/hipgrade.html">http://offa.org/hipgrade.html</a><br />
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Wendy
See the bottom of this page for the comparison chart for various hip registries:<br />
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<a href="http://offa.org/hipgrade.html">http://offa.org/hipgrade.html</a><br />
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Wendy Wendy, I have checked this li…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2009-03-14:865021:Comment:1672892009-03-14T18:56:22.265Zursula wilbyhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/mossby188
Wendy, I have checked this link, and I must say that the figures do not relate to Scandinavian figures.<br />
But then it is difficult comparing one "reading-system" to another. I find it strange that the scores should be so much better in for instance Canada.<br />
How does the system relate to the A, B, C etc?<br />
In fact I seem to remember Susan once publishing a chart so that we were able to compare. Time for a rerun of that chart Susan?
Wendy, I have checked this link, and I must say that the figures do not relate to Scandinavian figures.<br />
But then it is difficult comparing one "reading-system" to another. I find it strange that the scores should be so much better in for instance Canada.<br />
How does the system relate to the A, B, C etc?<br />
In fact I seem to remember Susan once publishing a chart so that we were able to compare. Time for a rerun of that chart Susan?