Setters and Retrieving Shhhh!

[Dave Wittrick]

Should Setters do IT, can Setters do IT, well I no the answer to that one as my R&W didn't need training to do IT just to refine presenting to hand. Why is it Taboo and is this just a UK and Ireland thing as it seems owners from other parts of the world expect Setters to work like an HPR and of course they must retrieve.

[Wendy Bockman]

Of course they can do it! Ours will all retrieve naturally which is actually a problem for us because they don't always want to stay steady on point and wait for the command to go retrieve. They get anxious and want to retrieve the live birds instead! :-)

[Dave Wittrick]

This is of course why I started the discussion as I always want learn all I can about the pitfalls as well as the rest. I'm like a child at the terrible 2's, WHY WHY Why. Am I storing up trouble by encouraging the Retrieve in my R&W Setter? Can Setter do the HPR thing without sacrificing the purists UK stile FT performance? Is the distinction the same between Pointer/Setters, Retrievers & HPR's in FT around the world?

[ursula wilby]

I have had both types, the ones that would retrieve naturally and the ones where it took well over a year to get a good retrieve. The fist setter I bought in the early 70´s would pick nothing up at all and I was very surprised as all my previous breeds would retrieve for fun.
I told Mr. James from the Wendover kennel about my probems in that area and he was horrified and told me a setter was...a setter and not a retriever.
What I have constant problems with when it comes to mine is the fact that they will not grip hard enough. I only train with wooden dumb-bells and metal ones. And there is never a mark on any of my wooden dumb-bells ever after generations of setters, now thats good, but a little better grip would not hurt.:-)

[Carmel Murphy]

I'm not sure if my contribution counts, as I dont hunt with my setters!! But I always play retrieving games with all my dogs, but as you say Ursula some do it naturally and some need to be taught! My best naturals are Abbey(IRS) Megan(IRS) and Luka(GSD) and the youngest Abbey is the best and will pick up anything(metal, wood, cloth, rubber etc) Milo will only pick up soft items and hates rubber balls(tennis ball only!)

[Pat]

Just to add my thoughts on Setters and Retrieving.
As Dave will know, my boy will and does some absolutely brilliant retrieves. He can also do the HPR gundog work, retrieves from water, and enjoys all aspects of the gundog work which is the main reason I progressed with his numerous gundog training. It has given me a very happy, relaxed Setter who enjoys all his outings with his 'mum' and is keen as mustard to enter into all types of gundog work. He will retrieve anything that I send him to retrieve, not only dummies but even the post when it comes through the letterbox at home. This, of course, helps my partly disabled husband because he sends 'his boy' to fetch for him.
There will always be two opinions on this subject of whether or not to teach Setters to retrieve - it depends on what you want to do with your own Setter, be that Field Trials, Working Tests, Training Days or as a very intelligent companion. I know my boy is a healthy and happy boy using his brain to its full in a varied gundog training way.
I think our Setters are capable of doing HPR work, retrieve work and Setter work - they work on our commands and it depends on the type of Events we are at on any particular day which commands we so choose to give our dogs.
Pat

[Susan L.]

I do not hunt my dog. But he engages in what I consider retrieving daily as our exercise. He does frizbee and chuck it. He lives to play ball and would play till he collapses. Grabs the tennis ball returns it, then drops it for another throw. I consider that his retreiving for me. He also will go get many different toys that I send him for and bring them back to me. He knows so many of their names that we have given them.

[Katariina Roiha]

The finnish FT rules demand a setter or a pointer to retrieve. It is also a requirement in hunting, you must have a dog that collects the shot-down-game to the owner. And most of us setterowners have only setters so we have to train them to do the job...

[Melinda Auld]

Pretty sure there have been a few retrieving titled Setters in Australia. I've even taken Fionni along to a few training sessions and he was the best dog in his class. I have no problem with a setter doing retrieving. If the dog enjoys it, and if the owner enjoys it, why not??

[Christiane Lohmann]

Please remember that IRWS and IS have already been hunting dogs in Ireland during the great famine and not only the blue-blooded aristocrats used to hunt with them, but also peasants. All those dogs HAD to bring the game to their owners to fill their bags. Be that ducks, grouse or haired game.
Only late 19th century saw pure field trial circus develop in GB, when the railway was established and landlords could travel north to compete their dogs against each other ONLY to FIND birds....This ended in the idea that they should NOT retrieve, as the close-up smell of the game might spoil the nose (?!)

So every normal hunter might pretty well expect his setter to be able to retrieve. But still nowadays - hunting with your dogs spoils the chance to get high into the stakes at trials in many countries.
Kata, you are happy to live in Suomi. Although we still enjoy the sporty version of trials southwards in spring.

[Dave Wittrick]

OK, interesting, so as I thought I would be safe in assuming that Irish Setter and in particular R&W, as the oldest bread would have been Irish HPR's and that Wealth and Leisure allowed the breading of Setters as a single purpose bird finding dog in a large Kennel which also included Retrieving dogs.

However that still leaves the question can modern Irish Setters fill the HPR role and be trained to be steady on Point and to Flush and then Retrieve that same bird or even, dare I say fury critter. I am more akin to the original peasant with his HPR R&W in that I, like a large number of owners who want to work their dogs, cannot keep a large Kennel and need a multi purpose companion or two. I am a Falconer and my R&W does a good job finding Fur and Feather for a Hawk. He has also proved himself, admittedly at a very early stage on the Grouse moor and will Retrieve Dummies to hand, both marked down and blind. But do Setters have the intelligence and ability to do both jobs to a higher standard?

Can FT competition in Setter/Pointer, Retriever and HPR disciplines be attempted with one Dog, three different dogs of the same bread or as tradition would have it with three different breads?

Can I expect to Hunt during the season with Falconry Bird or Gun over my R&W and then have a reasonable go at traditional FT's?

Is an HPR FT Dogs Setting ability and Retrieving ability as good as a Setter or Retriever?

[Susan Stone]

"but do setters have the intelligence and ability..." Dave, how dare you ask...???!!! ;-))

I just wrote in my 'search dog blog' about labelling breeds... I think it really comes down to your capabilities as a trainer, and to the individual you are training. Of course setters can hunt, point and retrieve and I know that you know... ;-))
I feel it makes perfect sense for one-man-and-his-dog to form a team that is fully capable of doing all that is required on a day's hunt.

But, having said that, I also believe if your aim is the highest possible level of competition (championships) you will have to become purist and concentrate on achieving the highest possible level for that specific competition.

[Dave Wittrick]

Oh Susan, I feel like a naughty school boy who's just let off a stink bomb in assembly, up for a good dressing down in front of the head mistress. For me this is about stretching my dog and giving him new things to learn, seeing what he can do and improving his ability at the things he is already doing. As you say it's about me gaining the skills to train him and maximize his natural ability and getting the support to do that. That is where the labeling becomes a problem.

Oh dear, poor chap, a R&W, OH dear, he's lovely though, nice to see one, you don't see many of those around. So your interested in FT, ummm what breed are you thinking of getting then?