'Type', Health and the Gene Pool - Exclusively Setters2024-03-30T00:49:00Zhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/type-health-and-the-gene-pool?x=1&id=865021%3ATopic%3A928970&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDear Margaret, The number of…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-06:865021:Comment:9331842012-05-06T10:43:15.280ZAnn Millingtonhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Vollut
<p>Dear Margaret, The number of litters bred by me is raised by you....several times - among other personal slanging stuff..</p>
<p>I did not say ' bred by you' I said 'of your breeding' ie Iona & Troubador and Zazu was owned by you, producing your first IRWS litter in 1999.</p>
<p>As for the others with none of your breeding, why not look there for the unrelated stud you have such difficulty in finding? They are health tested to the hilt with generations of data…</p>
<p>Dear Margaret, The number of litters bred by me is raised by you....several times - among other personal slanging stuff..</p>
<p>I did not say ' bred by you' I said 'of your breeding' ie Iona & Troubador and Zazu was owned by you, producing your first IRWS litter in 1999.</p>
<p>As for the others with none of your breeding, why not look there for the unrelated stud you have such difficulty in finding? They are health tested to the hilt with generations of data available.</p>
<p>Incidentally, Shannonlee brought the IRWS into the country in 1979 - their prolific breeding (41 litters) spans 30 years and their raison d'etre' was similar to yours. They caused the same problem - 'where to go for unrelated breeding? ' </p>
<p>Irish Setter folk, this is the scourge of a small breed, at any one time one kennel dominates the breed, belittling the other kennels - until scepticism clicks in and avoidance begins.'</p>
<p>Dalriach and Shannonlee are not responsible for other breeders' choices, but the volume of their progeny in the population at any one time restricts that choice - until finally, breeders see the problem.... and hopefully see the remedy.</p> "Margaret has bred 20 litters…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-06:865021:Comment:9331692012-05-06T09:12:08.575ZMargaret Sierakowskihttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/MargaretSierakowski
<p>"Margaret has bred 20 litters to date in 13 years, producing 180 puppies from 10 bitches - 3 that were bought in and 7 of her own breeding and only 2 sires, used once each, that are not of her own breeding"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you must resort to personal slanging stuff, Ann, at least get your facts right!</p>
<p>I have used FOUR sires (not two), who were not bred by me - Clehurst Zazu, Ardbraccan Gaelic Legend, Kestrel of Cherryfield, and Tullamore Troubador, and have just imported another …</p>
<p>"Margaret has bred 20 litters to date in 13 years, producing 180 puppies from 10 bitches - 3 that were bought in and 7 of her own breeding and only 2 sires, used once each, that are not of her own breeding"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you must resort to personal slanging stuff, Ann, at least get your facts right!</p>
<p>I have used FOUR sires (not two), who were not bred by me - Clehurst Zazu, Ardbraccan Gaelic Legend, Kestrel of Cherryfield, and Tullamore Troubador, and have just imported another new dog, Cherryfield Viscount ( who will be used for breeding subject to health testing and getting him registered in the UK)</p>
<p>I have bred from FIVE bitches (not three) that were not bred by me, Rushfield Ruffle, Ardbraccan Firecrest, Ardbraccan Glenfiddich, Pepperstown Polly and Whitenova Iona, and imported one more Granaghburn bitch who hasnt been bred from. And will probably be importing another bitch next year, if all goes according to plan</p>
<p>And I'm not responsible for the breeding choices of other breeders who , having bought one dog from me or having used Archie as a stud (just four other UK breeders) , have bred on from those dogs, If they go on breeding from them two or even three generations down the line, you will have to ask them why, not try to pin their breeding choices on to me. As for finding anything different, well there are other breeders who have had nothing of mine in their breeding - Shannonlee (the most prolific line of IRWS), Corranroo, Vanders, Casa Felice, Viewland, Coolfin, Lowdon and others</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Just leaving for a dog show and to meet up with some other IRWS owners :))</p> Finn. Didn't you know?
All IR…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-06:865021:Comment:9329482012-05-06T07:38:54.290ZAnn Millingtonhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Vollut
<p>Finn. Didn't you know?</p>
<p>All IRWS owners are most frequently asked that question! - yes, even those few without Dalriach ;o]))))))))))</p>
<p>Do you frequently get asked to use him at stud? </p>
<p>Finn. Didn't you know?</p>
<p>All IRWS owners are most frequently asked that question! - yes, even those few without Dalriach ;o]))))))))))</p>
<p>Do you frequently get asked to use him at stud? </p> Thank you Torie for your kind…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9325362012-05-04T18:22:18.329Zeva ciechonskahttp://irishsetters.ning.com/xn/detail/u_0gijg39gsgi1q
<p>Thank you Torie for your kind words but even with all the best endeavours and the endeavours of many other concerned breeders shit still happens and that is what makes it so difficult to get it right.</p>
<p>Thank you Torie for your kind words but even with all the best endeavours and the endeavours of many other concerned breeders shit still happens and that is what makes it so difficult to get it right.</p> Thank you Eva for such a deta…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9325332012-05-04T17:37:07.130ZTorie Lancasterhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/TorieLancaster
<p>Thank you Eva for such a detailed explanation.</p>
<p>As a reputable breeder and stud dog owner, I completely understand your point of view.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thank you Eva for such a detailed explanation.</p>
<p>As a reputable breeder and stud dog owner, I completely understand your point of view.</p>
<p> </p> Ok Torie, in that case let me…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9324842012-05-04T11:54:57.836Zeva ciechonskahttp://irishsetters.ning.com/xn/detail/u_0gijg39gsgi1q
<p>Ok Torie, in that case let me explain because anybody can go onto Mate Select, extract a bunch of data and publish it as you did. You have to put it into context. I take it the three stud dogs were not contemporaries of each other so their influence spanned over a number of decades not just years.</p>
<p>Take Night Fever as an example. We all know he was used on just over 100 bitches and produced more like 780 puppies. His career as a stud dog began before he ever won a cc (when he was a…</p>
<p>Ok Torie, in that case let me explain because anybody can go onto Mate Select, extract a bunch of data and publish it as you did. You have to put it into context. I take it the three stud dogs were not contemporaries of each other so their influence spanned over a number of decades not just years.</p>
<p>Take Night Fever as an example. We all know he was used on just over 100 bitches and produced more like 780 puppies. His career as a stud dog began before he ever won a cc (when he was a relatively young dog) and spanned 10 years. So you could argue 780 puppies over 10 years that is 78 per year or 10 litters. That is not even one mating per month. Put that against the number of IS registrations during that period, which were around 6 times more than they are now (remember entries of over 300 IS at champ shows) and you will see a more balanced picture. Can you understand how data can be manipulated to prove whatever you wanted to. </p>
<p>A dog comes to prominence by the progeny he produces. If everything he touches turns to gold then he becomes a 'Popular Sire' (that oft quoted phrase) then everyone jumps down his throat and blames him for everything. However there have always been dogs contemporary to all the Popular Sires who have been used extensively but were/are not show champions and who have dropped below the radar by virtue of not being great producers. Their influence with regard to health and COI can potentially be more devastating because it is a 'silent' influence. No one even considers these dogs. </p>
<p>I will not press you any more on this subject as you firmly believe in what you say and you have the support of other detractors of the Popular Sire who's opinion you value, and that is fine by me. I as a breeder will not let data like this prevent me from using such a dog. Once I have done my pedigree background, my health checks and looked at a reasonable COI then I would not hesitate. You breed to improve not just to produce. . .</p> Torie. I request cordially th…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9322382012-05-04T10:31:42.274ZRhonda Fisherhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/RhondaFisher
<p>Torie. I request cordially that you do not post the details. If you wanted to you would have in your post. If others would like some names posted let them do it.</p>
<p>Torie. I request cordially that you do not post the details. If you wanted to you would have in your post. If others would like some names posted let them do it.</p> Okay Eva and Sue......
Lets c…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9322372012-05-04T10:14:55.293ZTorie Lancasterhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/TorieLancaster
<p>Okay Eva and Sue......</p>
<p>Lets call my comments "meaningless" and "so much rubbish" as you have both said.</p>
<p>I am sure you are both able to to visit the KC website and look for yourselves, if you haven't done so already!</p>
<p>I will not be drawn into naming individual breeders when all the information is already there for all to see.</p>
<p>Just type in a few well known stud dogs and do your sums its as easy as that and then you won't have to heckle me.</p>
<p>Okay Eva and Sue......</p>
<p>Lets call my comments "meaningless" and "so much rubbish" as you have both said.</p>
<p>I am sure you are both able to to visit the KC website and look for yourselves, if you haven't done so already!</p>
<p>I will not be drawn into naming individual breeders when all the information is already there for all to see.</p>
<p>Just type in a few well known stud dogs and do your sums its as easy as that and then you won't have to heckle me.</p> Sorry, I looked back for the…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9323872012-05-04T09:53:08.145ZAnn Millingtonhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Vollut
<p>Sorry, I looked back for the exact quote and got cut off, here's the rest I am not 'caustiously moving in the direction...' I have been going on about the dangers of inbreeding for 30+ years as those who have been in the breed from the beginning will tell you.</p>
<p>I can't see the relevance of how few litters I have bred in this context. Is this relevant? </p>
<p>Margaret has bred 20 litters to date in 13 years, producing 180 puppies from 10 bitches - 3 that were bought in and 7 of her…</p>
<p>Sorry, I looked back for the exact quote and got cut off, here's the rest I am not 'caustiously moving in the direction...' I have been going on about the dangers of inbreeding for 30+ years as those who have been in the breed from the beginning will tell you.</p>
<p>I can't see the relevance of how few litters I have bred in this context. Is this relevant? </p>
<p>Margaret has bred 20 litters to date in 13 years, producing 180 puppies from 10 bitches - 3 that were bought in and 7 of her own breeding and only 2 sires, used once each, that are not of her own breeding. That's a lot of puppies and their descendants, in a breed where on average, less than 10 litters and 100 puppies a year are produced by UK IRWS breeders, and has overloaded the breed with one closely bred line.</p>
<p>The most frequent question asked of me (in my role as Genetic Sub-Committee Sec/Breed Health Coordinator) is "Where can I go for a stud that is not Dalriach based. I need more diversity?"</p>
<p>Margaret, you have written so much biased, misinformed, personal opinion in your last posts that I haven't the time or inclination to tackle each one. I suggest you communicate open-minded and face to face with English IRWS breeders and have hands on live IRWS bred by other people rather than relying on what people want to tell you on the phone or internet. The difficulty is that you have not done yourself any good by your rather patronising and insulting comments regarding UK IRWS......</p> <VBG> You got me there…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2012-05-04:865021:Comment:9323812012-05-04T08:12:28.594ZAnn Millingtonhttp://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Vollut
<p><VBG> You got me there, Margaret - Although it was 17 IRWS (time of the two tier registration system) plus 6 Irish Setter and 4 Westie litters 1970s - 1990s.</p>
<p>I <em>chose</em> not to continue breeding IRWS because of family problems, but have kept up my interest and concern for my setter breeds for 42 years - deliberately not breeding IRWS, I have an overview of the breed - I am not campaigning my own dogs, promoting my own breeding, I am in no one's camp; I go to as many shows…</p>
<p><VBG> You got me there, Margaret - Although it was 17 IRWS (time of the two tier registration system) plus 6 Irish Setter and 4 Westie litters 1970s - 1990s.</p>
<p>I <em>chose</em> not to continue breeding IRWS because of family problems, but have kept up my interest and concern for my setter breeds for 42 years - deliberately not breeding IRWS, I have an overview of the breed - I am not campaigning my own dogs, promoting my own breeding, I am in no one's camp; I go to as many shows as I can - not difficult living in the Midlands and run two Gundog Group shows each year, I also judge IRWS, giving CCs since the early 1990s and have judged IRWS in Europe and Canada as well.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You are wrong in your statement that I have recenly come round to the idea of</p>