a topic - Exclusively Setters2024-03-29T12:33:34Zhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:1633?commentId=865021%3AComment%3A3611&feed=yes&xn_auth=noOh yes there are some English…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-08-17:865021:Comment:106732007-08-17T23:22:24.131ZAlenka Pokornhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/pikica06
Oh yes there are some English lines that carry tons of coat. Just look at the Thendara dogs. They are always in outstanding coats and immaculately groomed.<br />
Alenka
Oh yes there are some English lines that carry tons of coat. Just look at the Thendara dogs. They are always in outstanding coats and immaculately groomed.<br />
Alenka The greatest impact in modern…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-31:865021:Comment:58672007-07-31T09:42:29.926ZHenk ten Kloosterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Setterset
The greatest impact in modern history for European showbred Irish setters has no doubt Sh Ch Kerryfair Night Fever (born 1979). Quite a few Irish setters have nearly all male lines back to this dog, bred by M. Chorley (UK).<br />
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Like most other male lines in our breed, Night Fever is a direct male descendant from Dutch Castor (born 1901) after being exported to the UK renamed Clancarty Rhu.<br />
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Knight Fever goes back to this dog on countless lines and directly (father-son etc) via: Sh Ch Sowerhill…
The greatest impact in modern history for European showbred Irish setters has no doubt Sh Ch Kerryfair Night Fever (born 1979). Quite a few Irish setters have nearly all male lines back to this dog, bred by M. Chorley (UK).<br />
<br />
Like most other male lines in our breed, Night Fever is a direct male descendant from Dutch Castor (born 1901) after being exported to the UK renamed Clancarty Rhu.<br />
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Knight Fever goes back to this dog on countless lines and directly (father-son etc) via: Sh Ch Sowerhill Sahib, Sh Ch Wendover Jeeves, Sh Ch Wendover Ballymoss, Sh Ch Wendover Vagabond, Ch Wendover Beggar, Beau of Wendover, Kerry of Wendover, Ch Padriac of Matsonhouse, Ch Grellan of Matsonhouse, Sh Ch Shaun of Matsonhouse, Sh Ch Rheola Bryn, Don Sancho, Rheola Maro, Ch Rheola Toby, Ch Clancarty Rhu.<br />
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Castor was a story apart, being named The Grand Old Man because of his age and according to his owner Ingle Bpeler (Rheola) able to climb ladders like a cat, especially when bitches were in season.....<br />
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As for European working lines, Christiane already mentioned quite a few of the best of Scandinavian countries and Germany. Especially the Norwegian club NISK has an excellent data base. Castor (Clancarty Rhu) is also -but not so prominent- in those lines. Probably the direct male line to Ch Palmerston who was put up in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York after death, described as extinct by experts, is still alive there.<br />
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So from lineage you'd say its Castor beating them all. Ofcourse with some question marks around this success, as all other male families in his days most extinct now is not healthy for the breed we know now.....<br />
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From literature greatest of them all is Garryowen. He's portrayed in "Ulyssus" as "so human he could almost talk" written by James Joyce. A century after his life, in the nineties, Ulyssus was chosen as novel of the century.<br />
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Henk ten Klooster. I find very intersting what y…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-30:865021:Comment:55922007-07-30T13:50:38.656ZAlenka Pokornhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/pikica06
I find very intersting what you are writing about your experience in USA. The museum sounds fascinating. A must to see one day (hopefully).<br />
Well it is really up to the breeders and their wisdom if they are going to use the dogs available in other countries. Unfortunately many people are just not as interested in researching the breed or don't trust anything "new" to them. Unless they are somehow forced, they will stick to what works for them and try to go in as little trouble as possible.<br />
I…
I find very intersting what you are writing about your experience in USA. The museum sounds fascinating. A must to see one day (hopefully).<br />
Well it is really up to the breeders and their wisdom if they are going to use the dogs available in other countries. Unfortunately many people are just not as interested in researching the breed or don't trust anything "new" to them. Unless they are somehow forced, they will stick to what works for them and try to go in as little trouble as possible.<br />
I does seem to me that today perhaps more "show" people are interested in working with their dogs than lets say 15 or 20 years ago. At least in our part of Europe.<br />
In Slovenia Irish are not split into working and show dogs. ALL of them must have at least Junior FT test to go into breeding (our policy since 1988). We have lots of support from our Club - they provide training grounds, trainers etc. Most dogs go further and pass the "Einzelsuche" or "Paarsuche". But it is really up to the breeder if he/she is able to motivate the owners to do something with their dogs (here I mean novice owners). In the beginning our dogs were awful, now the judges say they compete equally with other pointing breeds, often are better. Also the characters have improved. I am not saying our dogs are FT champions, but with a good trainer and handler, who knows....<br />
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Alenka Hey intresting Susan to read…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-29:865021:Comment:52422007-07-29T13:08:06.611ZHenk ten Kloosterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Setterset
Hey intresting Susan to read you find it "sad" that Sulhamstad lines "seemed disappeared" in the Bitish scene. Well heres some good news for you!<br />
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They are not totally disappeared. There is quite some blood behind most Moanruads and from that Sheantullagh present in UK field trial stock. And Marjorie Jarosz (Joanma) who died beginning this year had some behind her duals. Also UK red and whites carry Sulhamstead blood.<br />
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But yes UK showscene seems to have discarded those like many other families.…
Hey intresting Susan to read you find it "sad" that Sulhamstad lines "seemed disappeared" in the Bitish scene. Well heres some good news for you!<br />
<br />
They are not totally disappeared. There is quite some blood behind most Moanruads and from that Sheantullagh present in UK field trial stock. And Marjorie Jarosz (Joanma) who died beginning this year had some behind her duals. Also UK red and whites carry Sulhamstead blood.<br />
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But yes UK showscene seems to have discarded those like many other families. Apart from florence Nagels autobiography "Mission Accomplished" lots of interviews like "Sixty years of endeavour, triumph, failure and strife..." in Dog World February 13, 1976 explains why. "Its much easier to breed an outstanding show dog than its equivalent as a worker", she states.<br />
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You write "it looks as if they are still present elsewhere". Well again the good news...it is even very prominent! Her AmFCH Sulhamstead Norse d'Or (high tailed on point!) is behind most nowadays AKC field and dual Irish plus the FDSB only field Irish.<br />
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Even the foundation bitch of red setters, Askews Carolina Lady with whom NedLeGrande started his restoration programma of field Irish in the fifties, was partwise from her lines postwar. So Norse entering meant doubling up on Sulhamsteads. If you read "The Modern Red Setter" you will see American history was biased on Norse and that fact.<br />
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A big part of this blood cannot be used in FCI-countries because there is a ban on FDSB registered Irish by the AKC dividing two related field setters in two islands.<br />
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In 2001 during the celebration of fifty years National Red Setter Field Trial Club, I saw a few outstanding working AND looking descendants of Norse like the late NRSFTC president Jack Carters Mike Mulcaire. A pup came later to the Netherland, but it took nearly two years to get her registered...Due to behind the back oppostion of showscenes. It was won but lost as well, because that pup was according to the Dutch kennel club the first and the last... See for backgrounds <a href="http://www.Iersesetter.com">www.Iersesetter.com</a> click Lekker in de nesten/English version.<br />
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Being together with Bengt and Maria Sandin (Sweden) plus Gerard Mirck (NL) one of the first four Europeans to visit the Bird Dog Museum in Tennessee, its good to be able to report many of the Irish setters entered into the Bird Dog Hall of Fame are...descendants of Sulhamstead Irish setters! And theres great artwork from Christie Young (my guide for the NRSTFC-trials) under more on the legendary Clancy O'Ryan. He was a direct descendant of Norse who by the way came from old Scandianvian lines back to early Sulhamsteads.<br />
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The Scandinavian scene has many descendants of Sulhamstead-lines in the backregions of extended pedigrees. Christiane has made an intensive study of them. The Danish club for IS even bought one of her dogs! Istn't that unique. Probably most nowadays winners on fields and show carry quite some lines to early Sulhamsteads.<br />
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Anyway, like Alenka said: internet can generate a lot like sharing knowledge. But with Susan I'm very pessimistisc about chances of improvement.<br />
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Todays win or politics have been for most breeders more important than the survival of a breed over a long term.<br />
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Henk ten Klooster. Hello Henk,
I enjoyed readin…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-28:865021:Comment:50902007-07-28T08:21:57.828ZSusan Stonehttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/SwissSusan
Hello Henk,<br />
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I enjoyed reading your reply and found it very interesting. I'm not familiar with the US side of irish setter breeding, but certainly agree that it would be a shame to lose valuable old lines due to political restrictions imposed by certain parties.<br />
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The new 'small world' is possibly not all for the good - admittedly, it enables interesting new breeding aspects. But possibly the danger of the 'popular sire syndrome' spreading over more countries than one is also present? So far,…
Hello Henk,<br />
<br />
I enjoyed reading your reply and found it very interesting. I'm not familiar with the US side of irish setter breeding, but certainly agree that it would be a shame to lose valuable old lines due to political restrictions imposed by certain parties.<br />
<br />
The new 'small world' is possibly not all for the good - admittedly, it enables interesting new breeding aspects. But possibly the danger of the 'popular sire syndrome' spreading over more countries than one is also present? So far, the risk of inbreeding to one supposedly prepotent sire was limited to just one country or area. Now, with AI, these dogs are suddenly available all over the world... Personally I would welcome a limitation to stud use of any one dog.<br />
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I found it very interesting to hear of the working lines in Germany, NL, Norway, Sweden and the US through this list. After reading about the Sulhamstead Irish in the book about Florence Nagle (Mission Accomplished, by Ferelith Somerfield) I found it sad, that these lines seemed lost to the british setter scene. It looks however as if they are still present elsewhere! Even in her day, Florence Nagle deplored the state of the british show scene - although to my mind, looking back at the old photographs, the split was in no way as large as it is today...<br />
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Another book I treasure but admittedly must read it again, is Setters - Irish, English and Gordon - by Ingle Bepler & C.W. Ryan. It shows how much the Rheolas were used for breeding & inbreeding to improve show qualities. As you say, these dogs are behind all the (show?) pedigrees today.<br />
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It would be interesting to have a DNA profile done of various different lines of Irish Setters to find out how closely related they really are... This was done in Switzerland for the Bernese Mountain Dog, a breed originating from a very small area. They were found to be extremely inbred and as a consequence an outcross programme was started with a Newfoundland dog.<br />
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I suppose we could go on for ages about the pro's and contra's... which makes it all the more fascinating!<br />
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Susan Hi Henk,
you make some very…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-27:865021:Comment:48612007-07-27T08:59:12.382ZAlenka Pokornhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/pikica06
Hi Henk,<br />
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you make some very good points. I also have the utmost respect for Rasbridge's work. Unfortunately as you say many lines were lost, but I think today there is more chance for variety as the World is becoming much "smaller" due to easier transport, possibilities of AI, storing the sperm of important studs, internet etc<br />
Alenka
Hi Henk,<br />
<br />
you make some very good points. I also have the utmost respect for Rasbridge's work. Unfortunately as you say many lines were lost, but I think today there is more chance for variety as the World is becoming much "smaller" due to easier transport, possibilities of AI, storing the sperm of important studs, internet etc<br />
Alenka Hey thats an intresting topic…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-26:865021:Comment:48022007-07-26T22:01:42.263ZHenk ten Kloosterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Setterset
Hey thats an intresting topic Susan.<br />
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In a nutshell yes scientists active in the Dutch Kennel Club wanted breeding programmes aimed at reducing the inbreeding percentage, stating this was the reason for the many defects in purebreeds. Both members of the committee trying this plus scientists are gone now.... There was a lot of opposition from breedclubs.<br />
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Still in some places the discussion continues. Like in last monthly clubmagzine of the ISCN called Ierse Setter Klanken (Irish Setter Sounds)…
Hey thats an intresting topic Susan.<br />
<br />
In a nutshell yes scientists active in the Dutch Kennel Club wanted breeding programmes aimed at reducing the inbreeding percentage, stating this was the reason for the many defects in purebreeds. Both members of the committee trying this plus scientists are gone now.... There was a lot of opposition from breedclubs.<br />
<br />
Still in some places the discussion continues. Like in last monthly clubmagzine of the ISCN called Ierse Setter Klanken (Irish Setter Sounds) an article on the inbreeding percentage, more or less a repeat of arguments by those scientists. Probably as a result of epilepsy now being on the rise again in IS here.<br />
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The late UK breed expert W.J. Rasbridge already wrote that the Irish setter had degenerated from its original standard... He also warned against loss of the founding families and is the only one I know of writing a good article on those families. Most nowadays breeders have no knowledge of this.<br />
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The inbreeding percentage in Irish setters is much higher than estimated because people do not -like they did in the days of Rasbridge- make pedigrees 20-30 generations. Already in the fifies litters were born with around 40% of the breeding coming from just one combination: Rheola Bryn x Rheola Mallie. You could only see that by making extended pedigrees. But that costs a lot of time. It must be an intresting venture to make these for the current show champions....<br />
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Ofcourse the expensive PRA-testing scheme after WWII narrowed UK breeds founding families further into just a few keydogs.<br />
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The greatest Irish setters in my mind from UK-scenes were duals. Thats logical because hunter/trialler or not - a test on mental and physical properties is not in a showselection-only scheme.<br />
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The showselection-only scheme hit because of the Show Champion title. In the days of the full champions like Hartsbourne Brackenfield Bronze and Wendover Beggar, there was still quite a few lines behind them. Postwar Hartsbourne for example was based upon the Irish bred shower of hail Hartsbourne Flame, the American Hartsbourne Senor of Shadowood and a few pure UK. Wendover had a lot of crossing behind it founding dogs.<br />
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Possibilities for a better future: 1) International cooperation to collect, combine, share and publish expertise; 2) Stopping a system of showselection-only breeding; 3) Upgrade exhange of information in setter-cultures by shared media (the biggest problems were mostly too late, not or bad communicated in last decades); 4) undo the dominance of the American Kennel Club and recognizing also the Field Dog Stud Book (some good lines to share!!!).<br />
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Good to read here people are thinking aloud.... It used to be more a hide and seek game and silence or censor those who know.<br />
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Cheers,<br />
<br />
Henk ten Klooster. I fell for Robin through the…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-26:865021:Comment:46662007-07-26T07:36:11.571ZPauliina Artiolahttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/pauliinaartiola
I fell for Robin through the photos and some videoclips I saw on him.<br />
But the biggest "hit" was when visiting at "Berboss" and got to see Robin live - a big charasteristic and just as charming I had always figured. Even with some white on his face and in veteran age - that wagging tail and him snoring beside me when we took a nap together. Happy to have his daughter at the house :)
I fell for Robin through the photos and some videoclips I saw on him.<br />
But the biggest "hit" was when visiting at "Berboss" and got to see Robin live - a big charasteristic and just as charming I had always figured. Even with some white on his face and in veteran age - that wagging tail and him snoring beside me when we took a nap together. Happy to have his daughter at the house :) Thank you so much Christiane!…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-21:865021:Comment:36162007-07-21T22:24:31.244ZSusan Russellhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/RussellIrish
Thank you so much Christiane! That is just the information I was looking for! I have sent an invitation to Monica to join, not sure if she has the time, but we shall see. I can hardly wait to go back to visit Norway again, I really enjoyed it and met so many knowledgeable folks who really are active with their dogs. I shall keep you posted on the pups, it will be interesting to watch them.
Thank you so much Christiane! That is just the information I was looking for! I have sent an invitation to Monica to join, not sure if she has the time, but we shall see. I can hardly wait to go back to visit Norway again, I really enjoyed it and met so many knowledgeable folks who really are active with their dogs. I shall keep you posted on the pups, it will be interesting to watch them. The pups are just four weeks…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2007-07-21:865021:Comment:36152007-07-21T22:20:19.258ZSusan Russellhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/RussellIrish
The pups are just four weeks old. They are in Ohio - I have co-bred this litter with a friend Cassie Allen. The Dam is Can Ch Mythodical Russell's Reba. She is a daughter of my show bred dog BISS Can Am Ch Cairncross Russells Talisman, out of Am FC Mythodical Runnymeade Rip who currently has 9 AKC show points including a major. Rip is a beautiful, moderate, sound of mind and body, female who was extremely easy for Cassie to break out and run in field trials; Rip is the product of a mix of show…
The pups are just four weeks old. They are in Ohio - I have co-bred this litter with a friend Cassie Allen. The Dam is Can Ch Mythodical Russell's Reba. She is a daughter of my show bred dog BISS Can Am Ch Cairncross Russells Talisman, out of Am FC Mythodical Runnymeade Rip who currently has 9 AKC show points including a major. Rip is a beautiful, moderate, sound of mind and body, female who was extremely easy for Cassie to break out and run in field trials; Rip is the product of a mix of show and field bred dogs. Reba's sire Murphy has sired only two litters but has produced nice dogs in both litters who have field ability and are of bench type. Murphy himself has been hunted, and can run broke, but is not always quite as easy to keep broke. I hope this year to hunt test him - at nearly nine years of age he is still sound enough to run. Our goal is to produce a consistent line of working Irish Setters who are still of a type that can compete in the show ring. Our Irish field bred dogs here in North America tend to be very small and fine - though there are exceptions - and few of our show bred dogs are tested sufficiently to really know what they possess as far as true field ability. Add to that our trials tend to favour a snappy dog who stands tall with a high tail, and our show rings tend to favour extremely excessive coat and angulation, and it is a tall order. There are a few people in North America still working towards dual Irish - one is Wendy Czarnecki who is a member of Exclusively Setters as well - and we are thankfully approaching the task from different angles so hopefully we will produce a broad gene pool from which to move forward. I think the task is to keep body, bone, substance, and size while still keeping a dog who has the ability to show good ground speed, endurance and intensity. Coats are a constant issue - to have a lovely, correct textured coat on a dog often means they do not have the excessive coat volume so favoured over here in the show ring. Anyway it will be interesting to see what type of pups we get and what ability they have from this extreme outcross breeding, and then the challange will be to incorporate the good pups in to the breeding program from there...always fun!