AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete https://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? https://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[Ann Millington]

Why do you keep bringing up the Whispers & Secret 'story'? It has nothing to do with Harry, the born Irish red Setter. They were cross-breds - An IRWS sire x An Irish red Setter dam. They were not registered with the KC in 1984 because they would not be recognised. They were registered with the IKC because litters were still being inspected by a panel there and, if acknowledged as 'typical IRWS', could be registered. with the IKC. As Terry has said they were passed and and IKC registered. They were accepted by the KC as imports, as were the many Irish born IRWS of the time. So the 'history of this mating' was not known by the majority of UK people - it did not appear in the Breed Records Supplement and even now it only appears in the GB Club Database in the Imported Table.

So to answer your question - explaining all this to a neighbour who has not much inside knowledge of setters is straightforward and, as here, dogs are registered by their breeder as very young puppies, whether they win at field trials is totally irrelavent to registration.

Harry is not 'stripped of his AKC registration' because of anything to do with his prowess in the field, or that of his children, but because he is not a pure-bred IRWS.

I do not know if this is not the practice in the Netherlands... is it possible there to alter the registration of a dog based on its performance later in life?.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

And still waiting for you to tell us about Harry's record of placings/wins in field trials

[Henk ten Klooster]

Whisper&Secret enter again, as in my eyes they are very relevant for this topic.

Descendants of them spread quickly, influencing a big part of the IRWS. For example Whispers grandson IR FTCH Bawnrhu Smart Fella: two times behind the first litter of Margaret, who presents herself here as biggest opposer of Harry’s registry.

Although all three come from an Irish red setter, there is one big difference between Harry and Whisper&Secret. In the first case a lot of fanciers of Irish setters never knew their story. Contrary to Harry..

What would have happened if the AKC had applied the 'Harry-rule' you mention of four generations pure IRWS on UK-exports in the period of Whisper&Secrets offspring????

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Whisper and Secret of Lennoxbank were registered as IRWS by the Irish Kennel Club under the original outcross programme for the revival of the breed. This was one of the last litters to be registered under the outcross programme, and after it ended the registry was closed.
They are not in the pedigree of my first litter of IRWS. As so often, Henk, you just dont check your facts.
Facts - I bought Kestrel of Cherryfield, fourth generation registered IRWS, who is behind much of my breeding. Kestrel is four generations down from Upperwood Bright Weather (red) , this was one of the best outcrosses in the revival programme to my mind, bringing in some other good but non Moanruad lines that dont occur elsewhere in IRWS pedigrees. It was a well planned outcross. It produced some good working dogs, who are also pretty healthy, good hips , CLAD free etc and clear colour

Now lets get back to Harry. Still waiting to hear from you, Henk, what you think Harry has to offer to the IRWS breed. I'm not interested in whether he is a "face on hidden history" or the "most travelled setter", that's just journalistic hype. Could you try and think like a dog breeder instead?
As a dog breeder, I would want to know the following about Harry:

His record of field trial wins and placings.
Any show gradings. Does he meet the breed standard? Size? Ticking? Mouth?
Results of working tests
His hip score, CLAD status and eye tests (PPC and PRA). Any hip problems in closely related dogs?
How many litters/puppies he has produced. The record of his puppies in field trials, working tests and shows. Any problems in his puppies - bad mouths, monorchids, hip dysplasia etc
What genetic diversity does he bring to the breed?

Please try and convince us that the breed needs Harry and why.

[Ann Millington]

Henk, the big difference between Harry and the Lennoxbank litter is:
1) Harry has TWO Irish red Setter parents.
2) the Lennoxbank litter (only 2 were registered anywhere) had One IRWS parent and ONE Irish red Setter parent.
They were crossbreds - Harry was not.
I don't know why you can't see this!

If you study the Revival in Ireland (the was no revival in the UK - there were no IRWS to revive) - if you study the Revival, you would know that red and white pups from red parents were used before the stud book was closed and not after. IRWS in the UK were not organised in those days - the GB Club had only just been formed - you had to have 25 people to guarantee it and finding 25 IRWS people in the UK at that time was difficult!

Harry was born too late and in a country other than Ireland - if you wanted him in the revival he would have to have been a Moanruad in John Nash's kennel in the 1960s/70s and approved by John Nash. He wasn't.
As for the AKC's approval of the Lennoxbank offspring - the AKC did not recognise IRWS until THIS YEAR - by which time the two bitches have built up enough generations of IRWS to be accepted as has happened with the litters of the Revival.

Now if it becomes necessary to outcross again in the future, it would be with 'working-bred' Irish Setters - seen, approved, fully tested and free from the adverse conditions found in Irish Setters and then only after much discussion and agreement with the rest of the IRWS worldwide and the Irish Setter people - not on the whim of one individual nor as a result of 'promotional'nagging.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk, I think the problem that you have is that you simply promote ONE dog, who happens to be red and white and born from two red parents, and belongs to a friend of yours. You and a few others dont want to operate within existing kennel club rules, but to find ways around them or flout them.
Where I, and others in IRWS, stand is that we are not totally averse to the idea of a further outcross, IF there is seen to be a good reason for it . For example to improve the working dogs, to eliminate a health problem, or to widen the gene pool if it is seen to be too narrow for safety
And if this is to be done, it has to be done within a planned programme and with the sanction of a kennel club, preferably the Irish Kennel Club, certainly approved by the IKC and the breed club in Ireland. It would be about improving and conserving the BREED and not about one dog. And it would be done openly and honestly , so breeders know that what is written in a pedigree is what is actually behind the dog. Buyers know what they are buying, those who dont want outcrossed dogs can avoid them. The worst thing that can happen is underhand and hidden crossbreeding, especially accross international borders which makes it impossible to do DNA testing of parents
Its not about promoting one owner and his dog, its about promoting a concept and working for the breed. It would be about outcrosses between red and red/white dogs, chosen for their outstanding type, working record, health etc. And if in the course of the programme, somebody happens to have an outstanding red and white dog born from two red parents, why not bring it into the programme? As was done during the revival in Ireland
But lets face it, there have been other red and white puppies born to two red parents , even in recent years, and few if any of them were of the quality that that would justify re registering them as IRWS
You are coming at this in the wrong way and from the wrong direction. One red and white dog may make a good story, but good breeding is about what's good for the whole breed
I am not anti - Harry, I'm just not very interested in him as a dog, unless you can convince me and others that he has something to offer the IRWS breed.

[Henk ten Klooster]

In two postings here facts provided are doubted. I’d like to have this cleared before continuing posting.

Margaret Sierakowski wrote: >”Whisper and Secret of Lennoxbank were registered as IRWS by the Irish Kennel Club under the original outcross programme for the revival of the breed. This was one of the last litters to be registered under the outcross programme, and after it ended the registry was closed. THEY ARE NOT IN THE PEDIGREE OF MY FIRST LITTER OF IRWS, AS SO OFTEN, HENK, YOU JUST DON’T CHECK YOUR FACTS “ < (capitals in quote mine).

My source for stating Lennoxbank Whisper is behind the A-litter of Dalriach is the pedigree collection of IRWS to be traced via on www. http://www.wroxhamgundogs.fsnet.co.uk

Here I see Lennoxbank Whisper diving up in the A-litter as grand dam of IrFTCH Bawnrhu Smart Fella. Last dog is in a second time, so that makes Whisper twice present behind the A-litter.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The A litter wasnt my first litter.
But yes, Lennoxbank Whisper is in the pedigree of my A litter, which was 5th generation red and white. I dont have a problem with that. Lennoxbank Whisper was accepted as an IRWS by the IKC under the first outcross programme. I was fortunate to be able to use Kestrel of Cherryfield to sire that litter
I've told both you and Gerard before, that when Harry's descendants have reached 4th generation red and white, I would consider using them , especially if there is anything as good as Kestrel was. But not before the 4th generation.

[Ann Millington]

Henk, Margaret's first litter was bred in 1999 - by Clehurst Zazu x Ardbraccan Firecrest. The A litter was bred in 2000 by Kestrel of Cherryfield x Ardbraccan Firecrest.
The first litter had no connection with Whisper of Lennoxbank. If you check the IRWS Pedigree Collection look for Dalriach Myras Girl.

[Henk ten Klooster]

OK Now you have told us Whisper DOES dive up behind your dogs but not in your first litter but in the A-litter which is not your first litter. Aha, well that makes your statement on wrong information rather curious plus what follows…..

I’ll try to end this topic by a nutshell of facts around Whisper/Secret and Harry ending with explaining the personal angle. Its ok if you react on it again, but don't expect a long answer on all sidetracks, off topic questions etc in this topic. Hunting season opens here next weekend....

Whisper/Secret: Ann (UK-showclub) told us the mating done in the UK producing Whisper and Secret “outraged” the IRWS-community in her country. Terry O’Leary stated it DID NOT outrage the Irish IRWS community, where Whisper was registered and after import exported back to the UK. So: if this would have happened according to UK sentiment, many Dalriach dogs would probably NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN.

Harry: Harry outraged a big part of the IRWS-community (mainly show based with the exception of Margaret) in the UK. It certainly recently did not outrage the IRWS-community in Ireland. It inspired the one and only breeder who fulfilled an outcross-programme with the best working red setters, Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) to import Harry and use him for a few litters plus a son and daughter (Harriet) as well, last one fast scoring three 1 Excellents in field trials, ok for the title of IrFTCH (she needs a show qualification for that) . Harry brings in new –Danish- blood, from the same lines that working red setter breeders in Ireland wanted to use (but failed) a decade ago.

Whisper/Secret: According to more reactions on this list and elsewhere, the story of Whisper and Secret is hardly known in IRWS-circles. Only an “inner circle” is aware of that and there must have been a reason for Leighton-Boyce to report on this rather cryptic with “unusual breeding”. As well, I’ve never read this story in the only book on IRWS written by Patricia Brigden (show-UK). Neither did I read about it in the British dogpress. You can see especially Whisper playing a big role in the back of extended pedigrees.

Harry: Since birth, Harry’s happenings were widely reported in a lot of magazines and as well since birth on diverse Internet-lists. However, a lot on Harry was behind screens, hidden. That was in correspondence to kennelclubs and breedclubs. In a scene that is due to its rather hidden history already a big question mark for many setter fanciers, this closed correspondence mainly from the UK may have been the reason for later actions, like the one the AKC did.

Whisper/Secret: I don’t know of a field trial champion title for one of them neither on successes in field-trials, neither HD-results etc, neither show results etc. Correct me if I’m wrong. Fine lineage, no doubt. There was compared to Harry a quick turn over of generations and from that point a remarkable influence in both show&working lines.

Harry: a few wins in the EC for working Irish setters in France and Germany plus on a special in the USA. According to more top trainers of setters a dog who could have won a lot in the hands of a real professional (in France for example 70-80% is trained by professionals like this years winner Urtis). HD-clear, gained excellent in show. Sired only a few litters before being send to Ireland, over ten years old now.

More times in this topic, questions are raised or doubts made why Harry was in my reports. Well, the main reason was that I saw it happening right before my eyes. It was a card, made in the twenties or thirties last century, alive. By chance it was saved from destruction when I was a boy. Since that time the history of white on red diving up and under, interested me.

On that card were all old tribes of red (and white) setters in Ireland right up to the days of Lord De Freyne. It documents the truth of what O’Leary remembers from mrs Cuddy (the “Eve” of the revival of red and whites): there is only one Irish setter. That’s why I enjoyed the history of Harry’s litter hugely. I will give that card to the breeder who will in future start breeding with working red setters x working IRWS again - as a compliment.

And wherever or whoever (even Margaret) tries to provide this often vanishing variety in history a healthy future, my congratulations for any success. In case people try to spend their energy in cooperation for working on that instead of fighting eachother, I will one day as well think of a red and white addition to the red setters here as well.

Thanks for your attention and willingness where appropriate to discuss this open with respect for eachothers views.

[terry o leary]

Re Harry Hello Henk just to get the facts right.The IKC and the IRWS Club did object to the Harry registration.This had the support of all the committee including the then Club Secretary Jim Sheridan.The Dutch Kennel Club wrote to the then President of the IKC "The dog Harry registration number NHSB 2.182 has now been registered as an Irish Setter Red &White.This exception creates no future precendent and Harry owner cannot distract any rights from this decision for other Irish Setters born out of Red parents.This offspring will be registered with a note "mismarked" Please be informed that Harry's owner has been informed accordingly."This letter was signed by Lydia K.M.Erhart Managing Director.If Harry was fully accepted as an IRWS why was there a note "mismarked "attached to his registration.I think Harry is the least of our worries as his offspring must be nearly the fourth gereration now.When they are we can assess them and make up our own mind as breeders if we wish to breed from them.As for futher outcrossing the IRWS Club will outcross if and when it feels it is necessary to preserve the heath of the IRWS.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thats a straighforward answer from the chairperson of the Irish IRWS club, thanks.

The interpretation of Erhart's letter is -in my eyes- not correct. Harry has a full FCI IRWS pedigree, so no need to wait for four generations. Likewise his descendants.

But OTHER red and whites from red parents will or are registered by the Dutch club as mismarks, pedigree Irish Red Setter. Thats my interpretation reading this.

On your remark "to preserve the health of IRWS": the maximum coefficient of inbreeding (COI) in the Netherlands for allowed breeding is 5 due to health problems.

As red and white fanciers mentioned in the topic "Conflict over COI" an average up to 15 but often above 5, do you think this can be a reason to take measures to preserve the health of the IRWS?