Take care ! breed standard respect in France - Exclusively Setters2024-03-29T13:17:19Zhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/take-care-breed-standard?commentId=865021%3AComment%3A659949&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis is a very late reply Cat…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-11-05:865021:Comment:8384882011-11-05T15:48:29.877ZVanessa Woodwardhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/VanessaWoodward
<p>This is a very late reply Cathy as I haven't visited the site for some time. I lost Tara last month after over two years of poor health so have not been showing.</p>
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<p>I am amazed that this old argument is still going on. I thought Sian Thomas and I had won this argument a few years ago and I believe Sian has a letter somewhere, I think from the SCC, stating that the Red Club could not impose its own Standard. I think I am correct in that the Standard in any country affiliated…</p>
<p>This is a very late reply Cathy as I haven't visited the site for some time. I lost Tara last month after over two years of poor health so have not been showing.</p>
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<p>I am amazed that this old argument is still going on. I thought Sian Thomas and I had won this argument a few years ago and I believe Sian has a letter somewhere, I think from the SCC, stating that the Red Club could not impose its own Standard. I think I am correct in that the Standard in any country affiliated to the FCI must be that of the FCI standard which is always that of the country of origin of the breed - in this case Ireland. That was changing over a period of years and I don't know the height standard as of today.</p>
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<p>The day after this first reared its ugly head several years ago, Sian and I were attending a show, (I think it was Montauban) and the judge, somewhat embarrassed, had received his instructions from the Red Club which he insisted he had to apply thereby disqualifying all but Tara who, with her legs stretched back as far as possible in the hope of reducing her height, just about made the grade. Sian and I didn't wait for the end of the show but insisted on leaving immediately. Lots of correspondence followed. You may have heard this story at the time but having just picked up on this discussion I thought it was worth repeating. If it's new to you, suggest you contact Sian Thomas who will have all the details.</p>
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<p> </p> The guillotine would sort the…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-09-07:865021:Comment:7814952011-09-07T11:41:38.770ZJames Doranhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/JAMESDORAN
The guillotine would sort them out Cathy!!!!!!
The guillotine would sort them out Cathy!!!!!! Thanks for your reactions Eva…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-07:865021:Comment:6662752011-07-07T20:54:26.512ZHenk ten Kloosterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Setterset
<p>Thanks for your reactions Eva and Cathy. Yes ofcourse clarifying is ok, this contirbution is not debate but exchange of maybe interesting information. </p>
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<p>Eva wrote: ><em>Why did you bring up the demise of the Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter......please clarify</em>.<</p>
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<p>France is a country with at least in recent past lineage disappeared elsewhere like <strong>Derrycarne</strong> (Hostin)/<strong>Mullenculain</strong> and Hartsbourne. I remember a bitch…</p>
<p>Thanks for your reactions Eva and Cathy. Yes ofcourse clarifying is ok, this contirbution is not debate but exchange of maybe interesting information. </p>
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<p>Eva wrote: ><em>Why did you bring up the demise of the Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter......please clarify</em>.<</p>
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<p>France is a country with at least in recent past lineage disappeared elsewhere like <strong>Derrycarne</strong> (Hostin)/<strong>Mullenculain</strong> and Hartsbourne. I remember a bitch coming over here to be mated with my dog who had all this lineage (she was a show champion and ok for trialling).</p>
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<p>The disappearance of Hartsbourne type and lineage is in my eyes a shortsighthed result of trends in shows.But that is another topic. </p>
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<p>Eva wrote: <em>I am glad you are sailing off to Ireland for a new working puppy. At least you will get quality and type.</em></p>
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<p>All of the French trialling scene is based upon Irish working setters. What you make of it is a matter of selection. </p>
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<p>My valid point still stand: you do not come any further with discussing only with people who agree with you on main subjects....</p>
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<p>Cathy, I understand your post. But if a group is focussing on just one point, I will focus the other side of a medal because that's how you can learn. Although howling a same concert does makes you feel comfortable.</p>
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<p>Still an observation to share, when I met working experts I felt myself quite some expert on Irish setters. After that, I knew it was necessary to study a lot more.... It added hugely to the fun, pleasure and most of all knowledge of our common obsession which is Irish setters.</p>
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<p>Hopfefully one day for eveyone the light shines, that is all information not just a part of the truth that is always false.... Anyway, enjoy!</p> Henk, just a little answer th…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-06:865021:Comment:6631822011-07-06T07:50:13.677ZCathy Forsterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/CathyForster
<p>Henk, just a little answer that is outside of the subject of this discussion. I was an active member of the Red club from 1991 to 2007, was member of the commitee too, was organising field-trial, clubshow, was writing the magazine for a few times and over all was always defending the irish setter without distinction under show and working dogs. I was always preaching a large tolerance and ethic behaviour in each competition. I'm a french breeder and participate into french shows since 1988,…</p>
<p>Henk, just a little answer that is outside of the subject of this discussion. I was an active member of the Red club from 1991 to 2007, was member of the commitee too, was organising field-trial, clubshow, was writing the magazine for a few times and over all was always defending the irish setter without distinction under show and working dogs. I was always preaching a large tolerance and ethic behaviour in each competition. I'm a french breeder and participate into french shows since 1988, but also into other european countries shows. My husband is training our dogs and goes to field-trial in several countries where our dogs are qualified. We have 3 trialers at home. Two of them are show champions too.I cannot accept such a behaviour from an FCI judge and from a breed club, even it is perhaps the last who's providing working dogs. It's not an excuse for abusing !</p>
<p> </p> Henk......it isn't an art her…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-05:865021:Comment:6628662011-07-05T22:14:50.388Zeva ciechonskahttps://irishsetters.ning.com/xn/detail/u_0gijg39gsgi1q
<p>Henk<em>......it isn't an art here to win on show debates</em>....but there is no art nor merit to debate unless you have a valid point to make and a modicum of knowledge to add weight to it, otherwise you are just blowing in the wind. This is, after all, a debate about the questionable practices of the Red Club of France with respect to behavior at dog shows. So, in effect, a show debate. You came into it on the side of the Red Club, why change direction onto another subject...have you…</p>
<p>Henk<em>......it isn't an art here to win on show debates</em>....but there is no art nor merit to debate unless you have a valid point to make and a modicum of knowledge to add weight to it, otherwise you are just blowing in the wind. This is, after all, a debate about the questionable practices of the Red Club of France with respect to behavior at dog shows. So, in effect, a show debate. You came into it on the side of the Red Club, why change direction onto another subject...have you no further argument to propose?</p>
<p>Why did you bring up the demise of the Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter......please clarify. </p>
<p>I am glad you are sailing off to Ireland for a new working puppy. At least you will get quality and type.</p> Well as a debator you no doub…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-05:865021:Comment:6625852011-07-05T21:13:37.920ZHenk ten Kloosterhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Setterset
<p>Well as a debator you no doubt know about pathos, logos and ethos, Eva. It isn't an art to win here on showdebates..., you have won no matter how good or bad your debating techniques are. By numbers only already...</p>
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<p>But maybe you discover all howling a same concert isn't a best way to enlighten brains. So search for opposers, meet debate and benefit results.</p>
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<p>You know that I'm a student of those (no matter backgrounds) who can tell you something about our…</p>
<p>Well as a debator you no doubt know about pathos, logos and ethos, Eva. It isn't an art to win here on showdebates..., you have won no matter how good or bad your debating techniques are. By numbers only already...</p>
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<p>But maybe you discover all howling a same concert isn't a best way to enlighten brains. So search for opposers, meet debate and benefit results.</p>
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<p>You know that I'm a student of those (no matter backgrounds) who can tell you something about our breed. Like one of breeds biggest experts, Jean Hostin from France, active in the World Congress of Dogdom in Dublin, but never translated in English.</p>
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<p>This is my request: discover other worlds of thoughts in another way than demonstrated here. Its the best taste of setterpleasure to know all tastes!</p>
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<p>Well thats it, now sailing off for a new working puppy from Ireland.</p>
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<p> </p> This is going to hurt me but…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-05:865021:Comment:6622042011-07-05T18:13:14.013ZGarrech and Canaganhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/GarrechandCanagan
<p>This is going to hurt me but I have to agree with Eva on this one! From what I've seen in Nord Pas-de-Calais the French IS is generally very small and in most instances very thin, working dog or otherwise. I've only seen the one dog that was the "norm" for me.</p>
<p>Yes one has to win honestly.</p>
<p>Yes the judge has to be honest in their opinion and judging the dog according to the breed standard more so than any influenced biased direction. </p>
<p>This is going to hurt me but I have to agree with Eva on this one! From what I've seen in Nord Pas-de-Calais the French IS is generally very small and in most instances very thin, working dog or otherwise. I've only seen the one dog that was the "norm" for me.</p>
<p>Yes one has to win honestly.</p>
<p>Yes the judge has to be honest in their opinion and judging the dog according to the breed standard more so than any influenced biased direction. </p> Henk....Politics in shows is…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-05:865021:Comment:6614722011-07-05T07:44:12.626Zeva ciechonskahttps://irishsetters.ning.com/xn/detail/u_0gijg39gsgi1q
<p>Henk....<em>Politics in shows is documented here tops. For example how to exterminate a Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter.....</em></p>
<p>Well the activities of the Red Club certainly document the politics in shows for they are the prime example.</p>
<p>The beautiful Hartsbounes died with Eileen Walker. The true Hartsbourne hasn't been in evidence in years.</p>
<p>Henk....<em>Politics in shows is documented here tops. For example how to exterminate a Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter.....</em></p>
<p>Well the activities of the Red Club certainly document the politics in shows for they are the prime example.</p>
<p>The beautiful Hartsbounes died with Eileen Walker. The true Hartsbourne hasn't been in evidence in years.</p> Henk you cannot compare the F…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-05:865021:Comment:6613662011-07-05T07:22:29.475Zeva ciechonskahttps://irishsetters.ning.com/xn/detail/u_0gijg39gsgi1q
<p>Henk you cannot compare the French working setter with the Irish working setter. The French dogs are small, pitifully thin and have no bone and very little substance. They bare little resemblance to an IS in type or conformation. If we were to keep our dogs like that we would be prosecuted. </p>
<p>If you cannot have a French title of Champion without a CAC at a 'Speciale de Race' then you can understand how important it is for an exhibitor to win at such a show. But you have to win…</p>
<p>Henk you cannot compare the French working setter with the Irish working setter. The French dogs are small, pitifully thin and have no bone and very little substance. They bare little resemblance to an IS in type or conformation. If we were to keep our dogs like that we would be prosecuted. </p>
<p>If you cannot have a French title of Champion without a CAC at a 'Speciale de Race' then you can understand how important it is for an exhibitor to win at such a show. But you have to win honestly. For the Red Club to intimidate a judge sufficiently into awarding the CAC to a dog of their choice is both dishonest and unethical whichever way you look at it. You would condemn this type of practice if it occured in the UK or in any other European country so why condone it here. The same rule should apply everywhere, as should your criticism or approval. </p>
<p>As for the superlative qualities of Apache des Sourcieres du Sancy well these were thrashed out in another Forum discussion. He seems to be a dog apart from the exhibits shown at Lyon. If more French working setters looked like him then no one would argue the point. However they don't, or certainly none from the photos at Lyon. <em>If it ain't worthy it don't deserve to win!</em> <em>And even if it is worthy it should not win like that...........</em></p> USA and UK do not follow the…tag:irishsetters.ning.com,2011-07-04:865021:Comment:6608662011-07-04T21:36:40.240ZCarmel Murphyhttps://irishsetters.ning.com/profile/Clannrua
USA and UK do not follow the FCI breed standard and UK dont have a height standard, so are not included in this discussion, which is about FCI rules being ignored by a Club in France who feel they can rewrite the Irish breed standard to suit themselves!!!!!
USA and UK do not follow the FCI breed standard and UK dont have a height standard, so are not included in this discussion, which is about FCI rules being ignored by a Club in France who feel they can rewrite the Irish breed standard to suit themselves!!!!!