nationel/internationel or inofficiell dogshows?

[Sussie Larsson]

In Sweden is it a lot of Irish red Setters who entries the inoficiell dogshows, but not the nationel/internationel dogshows. I´m wonder why? Is it the same in other countries?

[Laura Kolbach]

In Hungary we don't have any inofficial dog shows like your ISF in Sweden organizes there. We have the national and international shows arranged by the Hungarian Kennel Club and a Club Show arranged by the Setter Club. Some years ago we also had one Open Show once a year but that show would not give CAC titles.
It works like this in most of the European countries.

That you have more Irish at your inofficial shows might depend on the judges - most of the times they are acknowledged breeders/judges of Setters and their opinion is maybe more valued by the breeders/owners than that of an allrounder, judging at the kennel club shows. As those shows use allrounders (or judges that can judge more groups) most of the times, to be able to use them for several breeds on several days.
We already had an interesting topic on this: what is better, an expert of the breed or an "outsider". I think it was called "Informed Decisions". Take a look at it, really interesting opinions!

[Susan Stone]

This has always intrigued me also... the ISF has more entries and breed specialists at their shows but is not officially recognized? Is this correct? Does the swedish kennel club recognize the ISF? Who chooses the judges for the national and international shows? Is this done by the SISK? Does the swedish kennel club recognize two breed clubs? Do the breed clubs set out the rules for breeding ie hd scoring and CLAD test or are these set out by the swedish kennel club?
Sorry, loads of questions... and how about the grading at shows? Does a grading 1, 2, 3 mean the same as excellent, very good, good? Maybe someone could explan the CK and HP to me also...

Thanks:-))

[Susan Stone]

Thanks, thats great! :-))))))
Almost all my questions answered - just one thing not clear: at a recent show Sofiero Nat the gradings were put as a plain 2 or 3 with a couple of dogs with the same number - what does that mean?

[Lena]

Actually, the correct quality gradings should be:
1 = very good = red ribbon
2 = good = blue ribbon
3 = adequate = yellow ribbon
0 = disqualified
Kep = can not be judged

Ck = champion quality = excellent
Hp = Prize of honour = very promising (puppy/junior/youngster) or well preserved (veteran). Is also used for breeder's and progeny groups.

The order of judging is that all in the class enters in the ring - the judge looks at all together and then do the individual judging of each dog. After this the quality prize is given. When all dogs have been graded, all with very good comes back in and are placed. After this Ck (or Hp in relevant classes) is awarded. All dogs/bitches with Ck comes back for best dog/bitch class.
The Swedish CC is awarded to ALL dogs given Ck in working class, meaning that you need to have working qualification before you can get any CC's at all. To be a Swedish Show Champion you need three CC's (at least one must be given at a breed club show) and a 1st prize at a field trial.

At the inofficial shows of ISF we do not have the quality grading. Instead all in the class comes back in after the individual judging, are then placed and can be given Ck or Hp. All dogs/bitches with Ck comes back for best dog/bitch class.

/Lena

[Laura Kolbach]

ska nog aldrig fatta :)

[Alenka Pokorn]

When I judged in Sweden a couple of years ago (at SKK show) I was given a booklet of rules and regulations. And I am sorry to say you guys all got it a bit wrong. 1st means our (European) excellent and very good. You can't give a CK without giving a 1st. All of the rest is as Lena describes.
FCI judges who judge at ISF shows may have problems in their own countries (we are not allowed to judge at unofficial shows). Also if reported to the FCI that f.e. an English KC judge has judged at such unofficial show they may be banned from judging at FCI shows. Same goes for "desident" (non FCI) organisations which are to be found in many European countries.

Alenka

[Lena]

Yes, since you hand out Ck in the challenge where only the "very good" ones come back, you must have rewarded very good first to be able to give excellent. But giving a 1st = red ribbon doesn't automatically mean you have also given excellent.
In Finland and Estonia for example they hand out the excellent (pink ribbon) already at the first qualification, and for the challenge all with either excellent or very good comes back, and then the ring steward make them stand with all the excellents first.
But I think you did a great job judging in Sweden Alenka - giving excellent to some lovely dogs and bitches ... especially bitches! ;-)
/Lena & Lollo (completely without coat at the moment!)

[Alenka Pokorn]

Sorry Lena I don't think all dogs given an excellent here in Europe are automatically champion quality. Perhaps we have different understanding of things, but not every dog that one gives an excellent to would be also given a CAC, even if alone in the class. Tickets are quite often withheld (dogs of exc type, but maybe not in perfect coat and condition on the day etc), stil dog gets an excellent.
And the judges coming from Europe do not understand Swedish system the way you describe it. For me dogs I give CK to are dogs worthy to be champions (this is also what it says in the SKK booklet). And I like the fact, that you can reward more than just one dog. I find this good. I also judged Labradors in Sofiero and had classes of close to 30 where I gave maybe 5 or 6 CK. With the excellent quality of Labradors in Sweden I am sure there were more that deserved an excellent, but not more that would (by my opinion) deserve to be champions.
Alenka

[Lena]

Ok, yes, I see what you mean - in that case you can not really tell wheather the judge wanted to give excellent or very good when handing out the red ribbon (but there is always room to state "type" on the critique). I had not ever thought about that distinction to be honest - only when I am stewarding I am always making sure the judge understands that giving a "red" ribbon does not automatically mean excellent as well.

In Sweden you can not withhold the CAC if you have given Ck to a dog that was entered in a class where it was entitled to receive it, but of course you can always decide not to give any Ck at all. Also, you can not refuse to place dogs in best dog/bitch, i.e. for example if you have four dogs with Ck you have to place them all (if there are more than five of course only five are placed). However you can withhold the CACIB at an international show, which happens occasionally.

[Susan Stone]

Thanks to Camilla, Lena and Alenka - I am slowly getting the hang of the swedish system (well, for the moment at least).
I had to smile at the 'well preserved' veterans - in english this gives the impression of fruit preserved in jars for the winter. I imagine elderly dogs in their jars... BG (but I did actually get the meaning)

[Alenka Pokorn]

Actually as a judge you really have nothing to worry about. The ring staff is so well versed that they guide you and can answer any questions you may have. I really like that about shows in Sweden. As an exhibitor it may be more confusing, but we'll try that next year as well.
Alenka

[Lena]

At the World show I am sure it's going to be confusing for everyone, because if I have understood it correctly it's going to be a little bit of mixture between systems.
So, it will be exciting, in more than one way!!!
Will in any case be great to see all the people and dogs coming, and it will be great meeting everyone!

/Lena