Ethics for studdogs?

[ursula wilby]

A member on this site wrote about making sure that her studdogs were only used on good bitches. I totally agree.
It would be good if stud-dog-owners were more selective when it comes to the bitches they will let their dogs mate.
It would (in my view) be excellent if stud-dog owners did a bit of research regarding the nearest family of the bitch and perhaps not only focus on show-results but also look at health-issues.

On the other hand I had a friend with a very successfull studdog of a small breed. And she would let almost EVERYBODY use her dog. In every other way she was a very serious breeder that was very selective when it came to litters she would breed herself.
When asked about how she could let just about anyone use her studdog, she explained it like this.

"I am not helping the breed by NOT letting people that want to mate their bitches with my dog. If I refuse, they will just find another dog. And would breeding with a dog that is nowhere near as sound as mine help the breed generally?
I dont think so!"

I actually had no argument against her way of looking at things. Her dog WAS very sound, had none of the problems common in the breed, he was well qualified in the ring and on top of that a friendly soul.

Worth discussing?

[ursula wilby]

I think this is where you have to look at shows from two different aspects.

One is from the breeding point, showing the result of what you have bred and to "market" your stock.
The other is going to shows for the pure compertition and for the fun of being placed or winning.

[Dee Rance]

I agree with you Ursula,
I travel with a friend that has a Sh Ch and he is a CLAD carrier, he also has a very bad hip score, I have actually judged this dog, (his movement is as sound as a bell), no sine of bad hips, (sometimes I think that a bad radiographer can cause many problems) and in the UK you cannot re-enter hip plates for further scrutiny, so you are stuck with them.
His owners just love showing him, one thing that I do admire them for, is that although in UK he could have been used at stud, they always refused, many people would have used him if he were available, now of cause his progeny could not be registered. but someone with ethics it is so nice to see...
How would you feel if you had a lovely looking animal and it was banned from the show ring because of something that you had no control over at the time, (this dog is almost 7 now) he was born at the hight of the CLAD problem, (when it was found) but a lovely dog all the same....

[Johanna Blacklake]

I cannot see any reason why one should NOT show a dog with bad hips or anything else that excludes the dog from breeding. Shows are JUST a hobby these days. Nothing to do with breeding really... Not even nearly every dog that is entered to a show are ever used in breeding. And that's the way it should be.

(Nothing to do... ok, the marketing point taken!)

[ursula wilby]

Johanna, I am a "non-show-person", meaning that shows bore me and a whole day spent at one, just means a wasted day to me.
A day I would rather spend doing other things.
But I do show my bitches (as little as I can get away with) and also encurage my puppy-buyers to show at least a few times.
Just so that I feel I have done that bit as well and that my dogs actually confirm to the standard.
I find it hard to believe I can be the only one.

But I agree totally that shows are compertitions in their own right and fun for those that like them! :-)

[Johanna Blacklake]

"Just so that I feel I have done that bit as well and that my dogs actually confirm to the standard."

I think that's a good reason to enter to a show. :-)) But to me shows are just about the looks, it is not a place to judge how healthy or not the dog is. Other than by the looks, what is seen from the contruction etc. (not something that is inside the dog, or in the genes), obviously.

[Dee Rance]

Well put. Although I like showing I would probably be much better off (financially) if I didn't go to shows, although this year is going to be good, there aren't many shows that We can attend, it all depends about the judges....
There is a social side to showing, you can make good friends, but for old fogies like me (that are now away from their farms and sitting around doing nothing, except looking after their grandchildren every day) I have to fill in the time (what little I still have) with something that takes all my money, and runs up 1,000's of miles on my car....some might say ''get a life'' and perhaps I would agree with them, when it is put like that......:D)))

[ursula wilby]

Yes Susan, I feel limiting the admount of matings/dog would be the only way.
We have this system in some breeds in Sweden.
Yet it creates another problem were the stud-dog-owner (who may be allowed 5 matings) will hang about waiting for the right (most qualified) bitches and not "use up" his matings on others.

Yet we all know that it is not always the bitch with the most titles that will be the best brood-bitch. It may just be that the bitch with most titles happens to have the owner that is most interested in showing and has the means to do so as well.

[Dee Rance]

Does restricting actually restrict??? In UK there are always ways around these things.....
''my stud dog got at my bitch when I was out, and I didn't know about it until it was too late to do something about it'' would the kennel club register these puppies or would they be just sold as pets??
It would be really good if the number of bitches was restricted to stud dogs, it might make the owners THINK as to which bitch to allow your dog to be mated with, it also would help the gene pool, and if there was a genetic problem then it would stop, well you would hope that it would stop, with him. And hopefully if there is a problem then the puppies could be marked on their pedigree, I don't know where to go from this, does anyone else????I do know that we need to do something......

[ursula wilby]

Dee I am not certain as to HOW restricted you would be.
But I feel that it actually means NO.
As we have the rule about free hips (A+B), you can not register a litter from a dog with C-hips. These puppies will have to be sold without a pedigree, unless the dog with C-hips is considered to be valuable to the breed for other reasons, then you may get a special permission. But this can not be gotten AFTER the event.

This is how it works unless I am totally mistaken. Please correct me in case I am wrong...

[ursula wilby]

OK the, I will correct myself.

Having studied the breedpolicies of the Swedish Kennelclub, it does say that IF you use a C-dog in breeding, the offspring will be registered BUT with a Not for breeding-addition that can never be altered.
Not much point then is there?

[Dee Rance]

Although if you look at the hip scores of UK setters, just because one has got 'bad' hips doesn't necessarily mean that the offspring or their siblings will have bad hips, it is just if they pass these things on, and yes sometimes ignorance may well be bliss!!!
All that said it is something that a brood bitch owner or a stud dog owner should be aware of what the other dog has or has not got wrong with it.
Some of the endorsements that are put on pedigrees now are horrendous, and that is another Forum......

[ursula wilby]

Quite right Dee, ignorence IS bliss!
When I bought my first setter in 1975, I asked about hips (having had german shephards before) and was told that setters had no problem whatsoever.
When we started X-raying setters in Sweden and found that all was not as bright as we may have thought, the hunting side insisted that the problem was only on the larger "show"-side.
Until they themselves started X-raying.

Trouble with hips is that unless you do X-ray, you may not know. Some dogs can live a full and long life with pretty bad hips, others have to be put down at an early age.

What are these endorsements you are talking about?