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I am curious to find more information and possibly photographs of irish dogs in my dog's pedigree. Two affixes especially would be of interest to me: Balcharles and Mullencluain

I wonder if anyone can tell me more about these breeders?

Leen from Belgium sent me these pedigrees for Shanomar Foss and Tubercurry Holly from the extended pedigree of Glen. see attached files. The dog Rua Midnight Mist does not seem to be of Mary Tuite's Rua breeding.

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Hi Susan,
I did not know that you had some of my breeding behind your dogs!
I have printed off the pedigrees, but I have to go out now. I will get back to you thid evening.
Trudy
Hi Trudy,
nice surprise I hope? :-))
These extended pedigrees make fascinating reading...
Looking forward to any kind of information you may be able to give.
Thank you!
Susan
Hi Susan,
Yes, it is a nice surprise.
Carina Ericcson in Finland also has Russtober Grouse behind her Ashrims Irish Setters.
The pedigrees you have provided look as if they may have come from the database I gave to the Irish Red Setter Club for their Web site. They have the same gaps.
The Mullencluains were bred by Laura Dunne here in Dublin.
She insisted that her dogs were all a good size and were trained, Field Trialled and exhibited. Her males were not allowed to be used at stud until they had proved themselves in the Field.
She told me that she would never sell a puppy to a thin person.
Her reaoning was that if they would not feed themselves, they would not feed a puppy.
Laura was a very strong willed woman with strong views on her beloved Irish and would not accept that Field Trial dogs should be any smaller than Show dogs.
She bred Ch Mullencluain Melody, who was owned by Tess Clarke (Balcharles).
Tess still visits the St Patricks Day Show, but no longer has any Irish Setters. Melody was also very successful at Field Trials.
Trudy
Thank you, Trudy. Yes, looking at the Irish Red Setter Club's site I think that must be were the information comes from. I also read about Laura Dunne on their site - she must have been a real character:-)) So the Balcharles all came down from the Mullencluains? And you say these dogs were trained and field trialled. This would possibly explain the strong hunting & pointing instinct that seems to be present in my last two litters.
Though of course these ancestors are a long way back...
I knew Shanomar Foss' owner.
Foss was trained for Obedience, but the owner's circumstances changed and she re-homed her.

Her new owner was Catherine Jenkins who then brought her to my Ch Ardbraccan Aristocrat for stud. Their son Arandell Aristocrat Phoss was shown at some Open Shows and did well. He was a big dog, very strong throughout with dark shining coat, well feathered. He was also used for rough shooting.

I never saw Rua Midnight Mist, although I heard of her. I saw her name and questioned how she could have the Rua Prefix. Her breeder had no idea of Prefixes and just wanted to breed a litter to keep one for himself. Midnight Mist was not shown but was a working gundog.

Tubbercurry Holly was bought by a couple who lived near Mullingar. I just can't remember their names. He was Irish and his wife was American and they had two? children. I remember he told me that he loved his previous Irish so much that he had him stuffed in a sitting position and had him in their lounge looking out the window.

They mated Holly to the Trenwith's Sh Ch Loughantarve Fagan and retained a bitch, R Exclusive Holly. Exclusive Holly was in turn mated to my Ardbraccan Dunswood Supertramp who was a Green Star winner and also won a first at Crufts. He died before he was three from a Brain Tumour.

From this they kept R Trudy Delight who was mated to McCarthy's Ch Dunswood Little Owl. They brought two of these puppies to a show. A dog, R Grouse and a bitch they kept for themselves. I have a photo of them somewhere and some day I will get around to scanning it.

Trudy
I noticed that your Shanomar Foss,apart from the lines of the Mullencluins (I see irish ch Mullencluin Missioner there Portia's paternal g.g.gransire) also Cilldara Shannon who i think would have been bred by the Kelly sisters who exported Beau of wendover to the Jamess' wendover kennel.Portia too has some of Cildara i think via Cildara Robin Hood and lastly i noticed that you have Derrycarne Amarcardo.The famous Derrycarne line was bred by Maureen Mc Keaver and is also in the background ot My Mothers' foundation bitch Beggars Bairn (g mother of Portia) The derrycarne line is behind Wendover Colas and FTCH Ridgetor Firbanks and amongst a lot of other lines.
Well I too have the Cilldara behind all the old Portarlie lines of Mrs Scott Gentles and Mrs Mateer's (Loongana) lines; and have the Derrrycarne's too;
and I see there is Brackenfield Pel Briar in there, now I knew this dog quite well, he was bought into Northern Ireland, by someone I knew, but was unfortunately only used a few times I believe; A lovely type of tall racy dog; the fellow wanted to win with him but didn't do what he expected on the shows so think he let him go;
Can't for the life of me remember the name of the fellow who bought him from Sybil;
Thank you all!

These were all pre-Wendover... It makes me wonder did any of these lines continue later without the overpowering Wendover infuence?
Why? I find Wendover Gentleman cropping up an unbelievable 94 times in Glen's 10 generation pedigree... and I bet this is more the rule than the exception in present day lines.
Sorry, that is wrong - they can not be not 'pre-Wendovers' I don't think, but I must look up facts and figures first...
No Susan they were not pre-Wendover; but the Wendover influence in Ireland was not so strong at that time; in fact I think there were more Hartsbourne's around; the Mateers had Hartsbourne breeding, the Hicks (Cuanhills) had brought in a Hartsbourne dog 'Cashel'
In the 60's was a Wendover bitch by Mrs Allen of Lurgan (Bramley Hill) and this bitch was put to dogs of Hartsbourne breeding; Walter Thompson brought in Wendover lines and of course Timadon Donegan, for his Moirabank kennel; At that time these were the main breeders in the North, using the show lines, though there was also quite a bit of mixed show/work lines and certainly the Hicks worked all their dogs even their CC winning bitch Reverie;
Trudy can give more on the Southern show dogs;
Our wonderful boy, Agivey Grouse (aka Tartuffe, MC, etc.), passed on in May, just before his 14th birthday. We really loved him, his character and temperament. He was bred from field trial dogs, but people (including breeders) who have seen him said that there must have been a show dog somewhere in his line, as he was a good size and had a fuller coat than most working setters.
I know we will never get another dog like him, but I would be happy to see some setters from similar lines, with the view to getting a pup in the near future. Does anyone recognise the lines or dogs in his pedigree?


I've attached the image file of the pedigree too, since this one is so small!
Attachments:
Interesting pedigree. I recognize some of the names of Irish Ft Ch and I'm sure you could find out more about their background via the Irish Red Setter Club of Ireland. The dam's lines are mainly english (you can tell by the long number) and I assume you could enquire with The Kennel Club on the background of theses dogs. Red Shrimp could well be a english working dog as he seems to have a stud book number. You could enter the number on The Kennel Club's website and maybe find out more. This kind of research is always fascinating!

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