A "whipsett", a Gorpet?? A bl***y disaster?

[Ossian]

I have been reading the outcross debate and some of the other stuff on here this week and I know there are some fine minds and caring people on ES! I am not a crusader, quite the opposite, but as a Setter owner and lover I have to highlight this!!

In the main we cross Seters by accident and when we see Lab x doodles and schmoozies and god knows what else we get annoyed but dont think much more.

Yesterday evening I came across an advert for puppies.

A "pet home" is advertsing Gordon x whippet for £300. There is a pic of a spindly orange puppy (cute at that age I suppose)

The Gordon community in UK is not large and I have subsequently discovered that the Gordon bitch has allegedly had a litter ever season and the "pet home" is not.

We quibble and bicker on here about all sorts of things but if we could do some good too?

Follow up on pups

Keep an eye on for sale ads on the net

Be nosy and report things that dont seem right

PLEASE dont condone these designer breeds anymore

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Its interesting how the KC is able to discipline breeders/owners who infringe their  rules about shows, field trials and registrations, to exclude them from showing, field trials, or registering litters,  even to impose fines. Who gave them the power to do this? Yet, when  it is suggested they put tighter controls on how people breed from their dogs, their excuse is that they dont have the power.

Try running your dog in a field trial without an armband with a number on it, you are in trouble. Or your dog shows aggression to a judge or another dog at a show.  When one of my dogs was listed by miatake  in show catalogue with the wrong sire (Fossedata's mistake not mine) I was threatened   there would be a complaint  to the KC and  my dog would be disqualified.   But breed two dogs together with serious known defects, and produce puppies with predictable defects or very high COIs - sorry the KC doesnt have powers to do anything about it

[Susan Stone]

Where I live roughly 40% of the dogs are crossbreeds or mongrels, 30% are registered purebreds and another 30% are non registered purebreds (meaning they are not registered with the Swiss kennel club & parents were not health checked).

I have no trouble with the people who own these dogs be they (the dogs!) pedigree, crossbreds or mongrels. I have no problem with the dogs themselves. But I do have a problem when it comes to the breeders who are breeding just for the fun of having puppies with not one thought as to correct rearing, socialising or where the pups will end up...  and hoping to make some money at the same time! Badly reared pups, whatever the breed or non-breed, are prone to behaviour issues that may in the worst case lead to the dogs being abandoned or put to sleep. Neglect of the bitch or oversue is a welfare issue and the RSPCA should have the power to do something in such cases.

In my training classes I encounter all kinds of dogs. What becomes apparent is that whatever the type of dog, the ones with difficult temperaments and behaviour issues are normally those who had a bad start and did not benefit from the much needed socialisation during the first 12-14 weeks of their life.

[Lesley Gilks]

Hi Andy.  My reasoning is that this "Australian Labradoodle" is the product of 6 cross bred combinations that result in an attractive dog that (one hopes) does not shed.  However, I was shocked to see that a lot of the sites were neutering the puppies before twelve weeks old and one based in the U.S.A had several litters on the go and promoting the up and coming litters that were expected in the next couple of months.  I can't see how these companies have the welfare of the pups as their main priority. 

I found one company based in the U.S.A. Highlands Australian Labradoodles, which hi-lights the point.

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Lesley. You say you were shocked to see that a lot of the sites were neutering the puppies before twelve weeks old and I think that is wrong. The vet would know if that is a safe age or not and for all we know, may in some way be the best age. I have looked at some sites and found that many of the breeders have dna tests and complete health checks carried out on the animals they breed. In my opinion that makes them, to some extent, responsible breeders.

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Sue. Thank you for the reply. Obviously I am not a vet and in my opinion 12 weeks is far too young. I have never researched this in any way, but would have thought "the vet knows best" in most cases. Is this another area where some say the younger the better and others say not under 6 months? In most cases you can find conflicting evidence to support or condemn any theory.

As stated above, I have no experience or medical knowledge on these matters and it is just my uninformed opinion that 12 weeks is far too young.

[Andy Benstead]

Dare I admit that I have a beautiful "Labradoodle" bitch as well as my IS. She had micro surgery as we did not want our IS dog getting to her. The vet would not operate on a bitch under six months old. The micro surgery was fantastic as she has only two tiny marks on her belly and she was playing as normal as soon as she got home. Cost £100.00 more, but well worth it. As far as I know, not all vets can or will do micro surgery. We hope to keep our dog intact, if possible.

[Pat Aldridge]

This is a very well summarised article on the "pros" AND "cons" of neutering/speying of dogs.  Those of us on the CanineGenetics List will be well aware of Laura Sanborn.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInD...

[Ossian]

I could throttle these people!!!!!!

Beautiful Frisheppie Puppies, K.C Registered Bichon Frise crossed K.C Registered White German Shepherd,these pups are Real head turners.They have the Bichon Non shedding coat and loving Nature with the intelligence of the German Shepherd s this is so wrong on so many levels!

[Torie Lancaster]

What about the 'teacup pups'.........they sell for mega bucks.

I saw a 'teacup' pug puppy and he was so cute and wrinkly, I was tempted to buy one myself (not really!!).

Everyone in the pet store was asking the owner where she got him from.

When there is profit to be made and a demand for these puppies, breeders will supply them for sure.

Some people just don't realise when they buy a 'teacup' pup they are only buying a very expensive runt.

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Mel.

To be honest, I would not care if that was directed at me and my Cassie. As stated before, the definition of a mongrel is different to a cross breed. I am not taken in by sales hype and it would make no difference to me if Cassie was called a turd instead of a Labradoodle. As you know, I did not pay anywhere near the price of a pedigree dog. I think you may find the Australian Labradoodles are heading towards being classed as a "pedigree" breed. The responsible breeders are getting DNA and other health tests done before breeding. I will get attacked for saying this but here goes. The reason we got a Labradoodle was because we like the look of them and we did lots of research before buying her. We wanted a bitch for Riley but did not wish to have puppies. Getting an IS bitch "done" could ruin her coat and we didn't want that. You must also remember that the best breed in the world, (the Irish setter) never started out as a pedigree dog. Most, if not all our pedigree dogs started out as cross breeds or mongrels.

I will now put my bullet proof vest on and cautiously wait. lol

[Andy Benstead]

Hi Mel.

I do agree with most of what you say. I agree it would take many more years now than it would have some years ago to get a breed recognised and I doubt Labradoodles will be recognised in my lifetime. I agree that some cross breeds are WRONG and in some cases even cruel. I agree that some breeders of pedigree and cross bred dogs should be shot. I will not comment about Labradoodle guide dogs as I have no idea what the situation is these days. I do think that most people that are getting a guide dog would sooner have a breed that has been tested for that purpose for many years. I would say, if someone started training other pedigree dogs (Setters for example (can you imagine) as guide dogs, no matter how good they were, the people that need them would still want a Labrador or Retriever. Most people do not like change.

Yes Mel, I will agree to call it a difference of opinion on non-pedigree dogs as I feel we both have valid points of view!

[Pat Aldridge]

There was an Irish Setter trained as a Guide Dog here in New Zealand - he was put forward by his owner - & he passed all the training & tests with flying colours & was an official "Guide Dog".

I will try & find the article in our Club Newsletter about him.