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Please remain decent and respectful of others views. Just wonder what all of you think of pedigree dogs exposed on bbc4 this evening 

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Ossian, if there is one person in the UK who has long  experience of breeding and crossing Irish Setters and IRWS , it has to be John Kerr. He started looking for red and whites and reds who carried the gene for red and white back in the 1960s. Bred his first red and whites (from two reds) in 1972, continued to breed red and whites from red lines, was the first person to register red and whites with the KC in the 1970s, and took on the fight with the KC to get full registration which he got  in 1978. I learned most of what I know about the genetics of IRWS colour from John. He continued to breed both working reds and IRWS up to a few years ago, kept a good relationship with some people in Ireland, but sadly became increasingly isolated and lonely as an IRWS breeder in the UK. His last reds went to Carol Calvert (Glynlark) and some of his last IRWS to Jim Sheridan. Alasdair Graham still  has Rushfields. John  still lives at Torphins in Aberdeenshire. If one wanted advice on outcrossing, one couldnt find a better place to start,

 

Not off the hook!

The "fear of ticking" was your explanation to illustate todays reason for concerns about an outcross - the facr that the result of the suggested mating is incorrect seems to have been past over? In fact the issue, like the gripe with Mr Kerr, is ancient. Surely by now a genetic group would have been able to assuage any problems and come to an amicable and agreeable policy with all members??

Is the "Woodlark" a working bitch - keepers dog or FT

The latest litter of Dalriach have a COI of 16.1  - below the breed average.

Their father is the only IRWS in UK to have his working qualifier and their grandmother and grandfather have I think you will agree acquitted thenselves well in FT

As to Mr Kerr - I really cant believe that on the strength of a letter - and its response that the club did not find some way to open a line of communication.

If it really was a failure of communication then it either suited the group at the time to turn away or it was a frustrating lack of understanding as to how a gentlemand of such great standing, a dour Scot, should best be approached.

You will lose the chance - the old hands are all being lost to us and instead of seeking their wisdom you will be happy to heave out baby and bathwater

 

Ticking is a serious problem for the Irish IRWS? Since when? ,

Well, right from the 1980s, didn't you know?  That's why it was originally made a disqualifying fault when Ireland became an FCI country.  There has always been issues with ticking - I thought you knew!

Too true Margaret, and across the board too, not just setters. This is the one of the main causes of the issues dogs are now faced with.

she is mentioned in this video from the KC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWjVFKuAg8

Yes you did...........I didn't know we were being filmed either.

That's because my happy boy is a total delight and loves every minute of it!!

To me it came across loud and clear.  There have been  some positive things happening as a result of the initial program, but nowhere near enough, which is perfectly true.  As some of you know, I have Irish no. 3 with a particular health issue which doesn't appear to being addressed.  I have also heard  from others who have litter mates of Tallulah, who are also going through the same ordeal.  Although she is doing so much better since she went on digestive enzymes, her larynx is still damaged as a result of the disease whilst it was progressing, and it is just heartbreaking hearing her gulping, spluttering and watching her lift her head gasping for air after she has chased off searching for squirrels. WHAT ARE WE DOING with all this inbreeding.  We are NOT creating perfect specimens at all.

I agree with you Sarah..... those same three words.  My heart went out to those people who have suffering dogs.  I know all too well what it's like.

Please, please let's get this all sorted out for the sake of our dogs. If opening up gene pools is what it takes, then FFS LET'S GET ON WITH IT. There are NO excuses when animals are suffering.

Trying to word this carfully........

 I watched both programms and didn't have any major problems with either of them, the only thing I had a problem with was all show/pedigree dog's being called mutants, I agree some of them look bad, the Shar Pi for example along with others shown in the programm would look a hundred times better if they went back to the forgien working lines as shown, although personally I don't like dogs with all of those wrinkles and that walk around showing you their bum, but thats just me!

 If all pedigree dogs are mutants then I have 6 wonderful, happy, healthy, loving and fit mutants and I wouldn't have it any other way, I'm sat here trying to think of a time when I have gone up to the woods and met someone walking a non pedigree dog and I honestly can't think of one, clearly most people still prefer to get a pure bred and know what problems they may or may not be facing.

 Yes, it is a shame that more wasn't mentioned on the good work that many breeds carry out with testing, hip scoring and searching for answers to new problems and to ones not already solved, although I seem to remember that IS were on the first one and were one of the very few breeds shown in a good light, but if our lovely breeds aren't having anything said about them at all, and that goes for all setters, then surly that means that we are doing something right, as the whole point of the programm is to try and show how much suffering and pain is being caused to breeds like the Pug and get something done to change it, and its about time too!!!

I totally agree.  I love Cavaliers and would hate to see the breed die out.  Surely introducing genes from a similar small spaniel may solve their particular problems.  

There are people in Cavaliers who are now looking at a possible outcross , and its not only small spaniels that are being considered. There is not much doubt the KC will welcome a suitable and well thought out Cavalier cross. And yes, it would be a shame to see the Cavaliers go extinct, I'm not at all a toy dog fan, but I really like Cavaliers, have often thought of getting a Blenheim Cavalier, but been put off by the health problems. Sue Jackson had some wonderful accidentally bred IRWS/Cavaliers some years ago, such attractive little dogs, And probably much healthier than straight Cavaliers, although some of them would carry the genes for SM and MVD. After the first accidental litter, she had people asking her to repeat the mating, dont know if she ever did.

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