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Hi all,

we read with sadness the news that the English setter is facing extinction (234 new puppies registered in the kennel club last year).. Does anybody knows what is the situation for IS and Gordon setters (i.e. how many puppies are typically registered in the KC in these years)?

I am just wondering for personal curiosity, since we dont see many of these wonderful dogs around.. :(

best, silvia

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That sounds like a very reasonable estimate of the cost. You might need to add the cost of any health testing eg brucellosis, and the stud dog owner's costs and time for travelling for semen testing and collection etc .

Yes, she did mention Brucella but added that it isn't in the UK so testing is very straightforward. I haven't a clue what that is but she mentioned it too so it must be something very important.

The lady I was talking to is based in Cambridge, so not too far a trek for me if I ever needed it.

I wonder if the shipping charges alter, obviously with NZ being so far away from the UK, but say you wanted it sent to France or Germany, I would have thought it would be a great deal cheaper?

from the GS statistic in 2010 you must deduct 13 puppies which where born in

Germany but they registered them in UK as they had a breed ban in Germany

... these papers/registry where later cancelled by the Kennel Club.

KC make it very easy for people to register foreign litters.




From this (which seems to be a statement of intent)


"In fact the UK Breed Club, the UK Irish Setter Breed Clubs and the KC are in consultation to work out how outcrossing can be done for the benefit of the WHOLE of both breeds and not just for one aspect."


to this (which might suggest the writer had been rash)

"Of course the IRWSCGB and the Joint Irish Setter Clubs work with the KC to ensure that the best information and four-generation backcross practice is known to everyone and that the future well-being of BOTH breeds is safeguarded"


This writer really must take more care discussing matters such as this on a global forum! Bodies such as the UK KC the Irish KC and the corresponiding clubs involved in outcross will be less than pleased to see this initial "pronouncement that the IRWS club of GB amidst its ongoing bluister about "outcross" is claiming that it is consulting with the uK KC about an ou cross programme


Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

you will <g>

Comment on the question of reduced COI through access to the THREE Irish dogs imported into UK


Can I ask who they are? There are two that I am familiar with and I have checked the pedigrees again to be sure. The two youngsters I have in mind are Dalriach Lord Decider/ Dalriach Garryowen children. Not strictly Irish dogs then?

It depends what you call Irish dogs - I meant dogs bred and/or living in Ireland.

The three imported IRWS are from Mizen, Kilkerrin and Jeroben and if dogs with Dalriach in the pedigree living in and being bred from in Ireland are not Irish, what about those 'Irish bred' dogs that have Shannonlee, Lennoxbank, Bawnrhu, Cladamar, Fieldtop, Dogtanian, Bishopmill and Ruemadra in their pedigrees?

Am I misinterpreting Ann's post saying the GB club is consulting with Irish Setter breed clubs and the KC on outcrossing? I took it to mean they are talking about an outcross in the UK? On re reading is the consulttion actually about how to stop outcross dogs from being imported into the UK?


I dont know what Ann means by "anomalies". The outcross proposal was researched and worked on in Ireland (and elsewhere) for three years , put out for consultation in Ireland before being approved by the IKC. From the reactions in the UK and Canada , I would say the people who object to it havent even read the proposal properly or are deliberately misinterpreting it. Initially the plan was for a pilot project between Ireland and France, with a possible second pilot project in N orway. The IKC however decided to open the outcross to any FCI country where the breed club and the national kennel club will register the litters, and subject to each proposed mating meeting all requirements and  being approved by the outcross committee

I cant see any "anomalies" in the proposal. If you think there are, please go back and read the rules for the outcross thoroughly, and dont read anything into it which isnt there.

I want to see this legal outcross working well and dogs bred in the outcross programme being able toi move accross borders freely for the benefit of the gene pool internationally. If there are moves to stop the dogs entering countries like the UK, the future of the breed is bleak , dwindling gene pools, more health and genetic problems and further loss of working ability. Or going back to illicit outcrossing, which I personally deplore, but in the absence of a transparent and legal outcross programme, will continue. Illicit outcrossing is done by individual breeders with no controls on what dogs are used and no health checks done. It results on health problems being passed from one breed to another without being able to trace where they have come from. It means puppies being sold with falsified papers to buyers who have no idea what they are buying , and later breeding from

The point that Ossian is making is that UK owners who have imported three puppies from Ireland recently , and one who used an Irish stud dog , were actually importing/using dogs who were either grandchildren or in one case the daughter of IRWS that I had bred in Scotland, . That's  because I have both imported from Ireland and sent puppies back to Ireland, and have been doing just that since I started breeding  IRWS. It isnt something new. I've been advocating more use of Irish dogs for years. Unfortunately the Irish breeders wont import anything from England unless the pedigree demonstrates proven working ability. And there is the other problem of LOPRA cases in the breed in England, until it is known who the affected dogs are that is another reason for staying way from UK bred dogs

And although two new litters in the UK recently using these dogs and with low COIs is to be welcomed, but I'm afraid just two litters with low COIs is not evidence that overall COIs are going down in the breed. One could also point to recent litters in the UK with COIs of 35 and 36% . Ironically the other country most opposed to the IKC's outcross programme is Canada, which also has some very high COIs

Opposition from all over the world? I dont think so. Not one breed club within the FCI has objected to the outcross, not one national kennel club anywhere in the world has objected. Even the UK Kennel Club wrote to the IKC to say they have no objections. No objections from owners/breeders of working IRWS anywhere, just a few died in the wool show breeders who cant see any problem with high COIs and deny the existence of health problems in the breed who object


Out of touch? I increasingly just watch from  up here in Scotland , and see a bleak future for the IRWS in England, unless there are real changes in breeding practices. More and more health testing as the gene pool shrinks is not the way to go. I'm not breeding anything this year, Cant see any available stud dog in the UK that I want to use, so will wait until I see the right dog from another country , If the importing or use of outcross dogs is prohibited in the UK, I will probably stop breeding altogether, it means the breed has no long term healthy  future here

And if this initiative from the GB club is about controlling what is imported from the IKC outcross programme, or preventing imports, and not about outcrossing in the UK, why are the Irish Setter breed clubs involved? Where a litter is bred from a red/IRWS  approved mating, the resulting puppies will either be registered as IRWS or nor registered at all. None will be registered as Irish Setters, so why should be the Irish Setter breed clubs in the UK be "consulted" about what is imported and registered in the UK?


I'm afraid Margaret has greatly misinterpreted my initial post on this subject - where I corrected two wrong statements.

In no way can the import of Irish crossbred dogs be prevented by anybody. 

In these days of promoting breed diversity, why this censure of the UK clubs' for discussing all that 'breed diversity' implies with its KC?

It is quite true that Margaret has bred more puppies in the last ten years than any other breeder in the UK and sent them all over the world - hence the difficulty in finding breeding stock that does not double up on this one kennel. This is just one of many issues that should be taken into consideration when looking at the way to progress - outcrossing is but another topic, but I can't see that discussing future breeding issues within our country should cause such consternation in another.  Rather that the willingness to look at experiences in other countries and share ours with those who will listen should be commended.

Margaret can't see any"anomalies" in the Irish Outcross proposal?

Here's one:

The requirements (I paraphrase from the IKC statement) - Irish Setters must have appropriate health certificates for CLAD and CHD and a general health certificate including height at the shoulder and a minimum of two profile photographs.

No mention of PRA or LOPRA then, nor any other conditions in Irish Setters?

The requirements for IRWS - the same plus vWD.

No mention of PPC or LOPRA then.

Margaret, you make wild assumptions about the IRWSCGB without being a member and without associating and working with the UK IRWS community in a meaningful way.




"It depends what you call Irish dogs" precisely!


You cite these though as "Isrsh dogs" who will improve the current COI? In essence two of them are large part Scottish dogs are they not?




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