Sire and Dam details in Litter Advertisements

[Rhonda Fisher]

A interesting new trend in advertisements on Dogs on line pure breed website. Litters of Irish being advertised with no mention of the Dam or Sire. Ads talk of proven show lines, bloodlines that have proven to be successful around the globe, features some of Australiasias top bloodlines, all Uk and european lines etc.

No names of the Dam and Sire.

Contact with the breeders has to be made before you can find out.

I find this strange as I would want to know more about the health and background of the pups up front. What do you think

[Val Jarvis]

I spent 20 years working in the pet trade and always adviced pet owners to go to show lines for a number of reasons. They will get a puppy that looks like the breed they want. Most ( not all) show people have some interest and knowledge of their chosen breed, and show bred gundogs are generally easier to live with than working dogs who need more involvement from their owners.

[Rhonda Fisher]

If a breeder has not shown their dogs would that really mean that the pups would not look like the breed. Conformation is a 'sport' after all. I would think the breeder would have a love and knowledge of the breed and be trying to improve their lines for health, temperament and the breed standard. I think all Setters need involvement from their owners or do you mean training. Tracking, agility, field trials do require a lot of training of owner and setter.

[eva ciechonska]

Rhonda, I think Val is saying go to a breeder who shows because of their greater involvement and knowledge instead of someone who has decided to mate their pet bitch to the dog down the road because it would be nice for her to have a litter or a puppy farmer of course where you don't know what you are getting. Dogs from show lines are much more laid back in their temperament and probably more suited to a pet home. Val was only trying to be helpful. I agree with her.

[Rhonda Fisher]

Thankyou Val for your comment, I was able to read it as it was very clearly written.

[Rhonda Fisher]

I have met some lovely even tempered field trial Irish. Very well trained and the breeders are very knowledgable. I see that you work your dogs too Val. Last years field trial enterants were all great in the field no incidents. Missed this years by 4 mins. A dog related to our boys was a high achieving agility and tracking girl , she was beautiful,

I have also experience some ill tempered show Irish. 3 come to mind that I would never wait near before going in the ring. Like wise have met some very lay back sweeties, I am sure it is visa versa with some dogs too.  

There are some very knowlegable breeders who have some lovely Irish who don't show too. Easy to understand if you are not in to the 'games' within showing or just got sick of them. Given that temperament and health are not judged in the ring to me it does count as a must have so I would be happy to go to a breeder who does not show.  

[eva ciechonska]

I think those wonderful and dedicated Irish Setter breeders who spend much of their time finding homes for unwanted or surplus dogs from working lines would probably be more qualified to tell you about the temperament problems they have to overcome, and I include shyness, reticence etc among that. Ditto Rescue Societies who have to deal with the results of irresponsible pet breeding. We all take back and re-home our own.

As you show your dogs Rhonda then would you not rather go to a breeder who does than one who doesn't?  Would you not expect to have a better idea of what you would be getting?  Most show breeders, me included, set a high store by temperament.  I would never use a stud dog who was know to be bad tempered or known to produce bad temperament. 

Given the amount of man hours spent on this site agonising over, worrying about and debating health issues between breeders who show and work their dogs and their efforts to eradicate hereditary conditions I think it is unfair to say that it is not part of judging or, in fact, the whole show scene. Margaret Sierakowski commented once that we are busy trying to clean up a mess of our own doing but there isn't a single breeder of my aquaintance who has knowingly or deliberately bred or perpetuated a problem.  However we have only to look historically at how quickly breeders have jumped on any hereditary condition, once diagnosed (rcd-1, rcd-4, CLAD etc), to believe in their total commitment to the health and well being of this breed.

As for 'games' within showing well you must be ahead of us because I have had no experience of this.

[Rhonda Fisher]

Helping to rescue setters it never occured to me to keep count of what sport the dam and sire would have been involved in. On reflection never had to help a field Irish find a new home. The lines are carefully bred here and the waiting time for a new pup is long. Most rescues have been from show lines and then a few pet breeders. My experience of agility and field dogs I have met have been positive. Like you I would not want a pup from a ill tempered dog. Viewing the parents is important. I said in the ring. The discussions and attention to health, COI's etc has involved many people, all types of breeders, companion owners, lots of people who don't show. All interested in the health of the breed and trying to learn more for breeding and purchase of a healthy puppy. We have some breeders that will  test for rcd4 and some that will not. Some of those who will not will be show people. Some who will are people who are not showing. Is there anything stopping a rcd-4 affected dog or untested dog from being shown. Is there anything stopping a dog that has bloated from being shown. It was explained to me no. It touches on conversations that have been on here before. Breed standard, health and temperament and a upfront small breeder who takes the lead in listing health results and meeting the parents is what I would base my choice on.

It is good to hear that showing is a pure sport in the Uk based on the dog and not kennels or faces.

[eva ciechonska]

I mentioned the homing of unwanted dogs from working lines because, sadly, it happens.  These are dogs who do not make into good workers and are put into pounds or for whom good homes have not been found who are brought into the UK for homing.  Most show breeders take back their own in the UK and luckily there are not too many IS registered every year for rescue to be a problem.

Just to pick up on a point you made Rhonda regarding the showing (or indeed working) of dogs who have bloated or are affected with rcd-4.  You are right that they can still be shown (or worked) but no breeder in their right mind would breed from a dog who has bloated though it is the general concensus of opinion that a dog affected with rcd-4 could be carefully put to a clear dog to clear the line.  Dogs who have been operated on for entropion are barred from the show ring and again it would be silly to breed from them.  What you are able to show or work and what you are able to breed from are two different things and should not be confused.

Regarding your last point, of course face judging goes on in the UK, as it does everywhere.  Putting up dogs of a type you like from certain kennels is yet another point and surely there is nothing wrong with that.  I wouldn't clasify either as 'playing games'.  That is something completely different.

[Rhonda Fisher]

 'What you are able to show or work and what you are able to breed from are two different things and should not be confused'.

A very simple but lovely summary of the post and I agree.

Don't confuse show results or success with a prerequisite for a good sire or dam. The actual health and temperament record of the dogs are the most important thing. For that you need the names of the dogs. Not what the show records for the lines are.

Sadly show dogs who do have health issues are bred from and some breeders are not always upfront with this information.

 

[Finding_Beau]

I have only read this far on this topic but feel extremely annoyed with this comment about "pet owners". Pet owners can know more about the bloodlines than registered breeders. I am certain I am not the only pet owner who has knowledge of English Setter bloodlines not only in Australia, in other countries around the world, and who feels that the bloodlines are an important consideration when purchasing a purebred puppy. I am editing this comment because it has not ended up where I replied, i.e. to the 5th comment, I believe, made by Eva. I will add that some breeders should get out of their arrogance.

[Finding_Beau]

I disagree. From my own personal experience and the personal experiences of the many pet owners I know who have purchased a purebred dog, the name does mean something because the name is the breeder kennel prefix. I believe you are contradicting yourself by saying on the one hand that the name might not mean much to a pet owner, but on the other hand the pet owner would be interested in proven successful show lines.

[eva ciechonska]

Susan, I did not write the comment out of arrogance but out of experience.  In my experience naming the sire and dam in an advert doesn't mean much to a pet owner but providing information on health checks, temperament etc does.  Many breeders over here advertise on the Irish Setter UK website where you can add all the above including photographs and pedigrees.  This gives the pet owner a better insight into the breeder of their choice but there is absolutely no substitute for contact and discussion.

Please tell me when has 'pet owner' become a derogatory term?  Why do you think it is? I have never used it as such. It is just a description of someone who doesn't breed or show dogs but owns them.  How else can you differentiate?  Not everyone who owns Irish Setters is a member of ES, or even wants to be so doesn't have the additional knowledge that a site like this can provide. Not everyone is inclined to research into bloodlines to the depth that you do, all they want is a happy, healthy, well adjusted family pet who will give them years of pleasure and what is wrong with that.