Hi Katariina - and all the rest. I've been on your blog and loved the photos - still all in finnish;-(

What are all of you doing to prepare your dogs for the next trial season? I'm working on basic obedience and dropping to ducks and crows... not much else to be done with all this snow.

Watch the pictures off Jean Duhant off the field training off the Belgium IRSC!!

On 7-actu.com there are already results off Irish setters in France.

Some with a qualification!!

Congratulations.

In Holland it's like in Belgium, France and Germany. We are in the field walking behind the dogs.

In Holland young dogs compete in the youth class where you get a walk off ten minutes. When there was now birds in this ten minutes and the work off the dog was in the way off the breed? The juged can decide to give a second ore third walk. Steadenes is not needed.

This most be there in the open class.

Saterday 02 April, Rilland Holland

Fergus vom Kapellenpfad competed in his first youth field trial.

He was rewarded with a Eervolle Vermelding.

The Scottish Spring Trials on grouse finished yesterday. Dalriach Neige ran in three Novice and one Open Stake, and got a 2nd in the Novice stake at Drymachan (29 dogs entered). The last two days at Dalmagarry  we had terrible weather, snow, sleet, water running down the hillside, cold winter. The dogs couldnt find scent and there were no awards in the novice stake

Neige was the only IRWS running, but I was interested to see the growing number of dual purpose Gordons entered. The Gordon people are really trying to breed a medium sized , athletc dog with less coat who is acceptable type for the show ring , but can also work. They are getting faster with a smoother more level gallop, and are covering more ground than some of the taller show type Gordons they used to run. I was also impressed how hard these Gordon people are working at breeding and training a more successful dual type dog. The IRWS people in England who are interested in training their dogs could learn a lot from them

Results coming in I see... Congratulations to Fergus!

and

Congratulations to Dalriach Neige! So I see it was definitely worth perservering...

Do you have the full results, please? Speaking fo the Gordons, I wonder how Boyers Strauss did? I loved watching this boy run in Reeth.

Hot & sunny here!

Susan in Switzerland

Susan, I dont think Boyar's Strauss was in the awards. He did get through to the second round in at least two of the Novice stakes, maybe more.

But there were not a lot of awards in Novice, none at Dalmagarry because the weather was so bad. The Darraghs between them scooped a lot of the places in both Open and Novice:))

Its a real problem, Dave. Realistically the IRWS is going the same way as the other setter breeds, split into show and FT dogs. Some of the Gordon people are trying to breed a dual purpose dog and doing it with some success . The IRWS breeders are not even trying, the show people in the UK breed for the show ring, and the Irish field triallers breed for field trialling.. Even where some people in England have used some of my dogs, who have working dogs in their pedigrees, in their breeding, the offspring go in the show ring but  dont get trained to work. I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall at times! On the more positive side, there are people in other countries like Norway who like the kind of dogs who look good AND can work. And a couple of people in England have imported IRWS from Ireland recently who have predominantly working pedigrees which they will use in their breeding. But mainly to get some genetic diversity rather than because because they want dogs who will work. At least it will help to slow down the drift towards diverging  breed types

Nothing, Larry. I dont have a problem with the field trial dogs, they are fit and functional, and the type has changed very little  since the revival in the 1970s

Its the divergence in type between the show and FT bred ones , and the lack of interest in the show breeders in breeding to maintain function that depresses me

Again, you have identified a problem. The show breeders will say" All the red and whites go back to the same dogs in Ireland in the 1970s, so they will all still have working ability". But the field trial dogs in Ireland and the Rushfields continued to be bred selectively for working ability, and the show dogs in England have been bredselectively  for looks, with no testing of their working ability over the last 30 years. Peter Moxon used to say that it takes only four generations of breeding purely for looks , and most of the working ability will be gone, although for a while  there will be occasional throwbacks with some working instinct, but long term it just disappears

The funny thing is that show people understand very well that if you want good conformation, you have to breed from dogs with good conformation. But somehow they believe that working ability will survive without actually breeding for it. But it seems almost impossible to get this simple message through, if you want to maintain working ability, you have to breed for it

There is also the belief that that because the dogs still have this ineradicable working instinct that given the opportunity to get near birds, they will work without too much effort on the part of the owner. Thats the other simple message that is so hard to get through, if you want your dog to work, you have to put in hard work, not just a couple of Sundays in a year, but every day, starting with the puppy

Starting with an adult dog already two or three years old is much more difficult than starting with a puppy

And Dave I agree, you can have two similar IRWS from the same litter, one will work and another wont , but will still do well in the show ring. But I will predict the one who works is more likely to produce more good working dogs

Neige has a sister Norna who is already an Irish Sh Ch . Polly had a sister Red who was an Irish Sh Ch and worked as a moderately successful shooting bitch

There are some very successful field triallers in the UK who started in show dogs, got interested in working with their dogs, for a while tried to breed show dogs who could work, and ended up concentrating on field trialling. Colin and Julie Organ started in show pointers, and both are still A list show judges

The O'Driscolls also started in show pointers, Geraldine still shows, Peter now concentrates entirely on his FT dogs

The Gaskins in New Zealand also started with show Irish, were determined to prove their show Irish would work and spent several years doing it, but eventually moved into doing only field trialling with working bred dogs

There are also people like the Goutourbes and the Underwoods in English setters , who tend to now have separate lines for showing and trialling. And Mary and Colette Tuite in Irish Setters

The Gordon people are different. They started with show dogs , tried training and trialling their show dogs, and have come round to actively breeding for a dual purpose dog, which they show AND field trial

I dont have any problem with whether people want a dual purpose dog, or a field trial dog, the main thing is , they want a dog which is fit and functional

But there are not that many people who are really successful at breeding, showing and trialling their dual purpose dogs. There are a few on this list like Susan Russell and Susan Stone. Its a hard road to travel, and how many people have the time, money, energy and dedication to do both successfully? Probably easier to concentrate on one thing or the other for most people

And some of the dogs their owners describe as dual purpose are really show dogs who have been trained well, rather than dogs with dual purpose breeding

These dogs if really well trained can do well up to a certain level but are very unlikely to match the top FT bred dogs

John Kerr trialled some of his Rushfield dogs,  Lawton Evans handled some of the Rushfield dogs and a Craigrua bitch  in Scottish trials, and Donalda Carson had a good Rushfield dog trained and handled by Nancy Reid. Mary Tuite trained two IRWS for trials , one show bred and one more working bred (Bawnrhu) but gave up. I dont know when or where Val Jarvis trialled hers, I've never seen her at a field trial. Peter O.Driscoll handled Rodoghvit Huath for Phylls Ralston Steven Clarke ran Pepperstown Rascal brother of Polly in  Novice , Open and Ch Stakes. Colin Organ handled Polly for a year after she came back from Italy, and now handles Neige. And thats about it on main land UK.

In Nothern Ireland there are Desi Linton and Raymond Monroe with IRWS

Otherwise all the field trial IRWS are in southern Ireland

The trouble with working dogs on shoots down in England means they are beating or picking up, which is not work for setters. Its for spaniels and labs.  The dogs have to work very close for beating, within 30 yards, and flush rather than point ie they work like spaniels. Picking up is retrieving.and on the whole setters wont retrieve all day, they just get bored and want to go off looking for live birds, not dead ones

If you wanted to train a dog to work like a setter , whether for shooting or for field trials, you couldnt let it go beating, as you want the dog to range wide  and beyong gun range, and to point, not flush. Beating is actually bad for pointing dogs!

On the other hand, if there is nothing else the owner can do, I guess beating or picking up is better lying on a sofa all day . ! But is a very poor second best for a setter.

And If one enjoys beating and picking it, probably one would do better with a spaniel or lab

I do agree with Iar Quinn. That there should be judges who knows the working setter!

I don''t think that most Irish setters with all that long hair will stay long in the field!

By the Red and white I think the different is not there?

Fergus has since 19-06-2011 5 sisters en 6 brothers!!

www.irishsettervomkapellenpfad.de

Dave,

The stud is Vesper val du Lou.

The same parents as Fergus!

Susan,

your judge yourself?

It's time that the setter club Holland invite you for a clubmatch!

Wim,

actually yes I do. But you may not like it... ;o))

I try to go for a balanced dog with good construction and breed type. I do not like either extremes: neither the overdone flashy show dog nor the extremely small and light trial dog. Believe me, it is never easy...

That's for sure!

It's not easy.

Saturday we had a field trial on pheasant (placed) in sugar beet - not good, the birds were wet small and did not fly.

Glen in 'quête de chasse couple' hunted really well, ranged wide, dropped to hare(!) and then pointed a badly hidden pheasant... until his brace mate closed in trying to steal the point and Glen decided to make a grab for the pheasant! The bird escaped but the harm was done! Three awards given: Tigre del Zagnis English Setter won CACIT, 2nd exc Pointer Billa, 3rd exc Bolero of Flying Hunter (Gordon Setter)

Good luck next time Susan,  Hawk has decided he does not want to hold at the flush, just started doing this for the last two times we have been at the trainers.   You should hear him when we make him honor, the barking is something else.