Advice on Bloat, as given in the Irish Setter Breeders Club Newsletter, Winter 2009

[Susan Stone]

The Summer Newsletter 2009 and the Winter Newsletter 2009 of the ISBC (UK) both contain important information on health issues. Anyone interested may be able to order a copy via the secretary (see website).

The advice given on page 5 Vol 1 Issue 27 by the breed clubs' KC Health Liaison Representative Prof Ed Hall to vets and breeders is quoted as follows:

"1. A gastroplexy should always be performed when torsion is corrected.

2. Inflammatory bowel disease is not common in young dogs and to use steroids and other drugs with significant side-effects is inappropriate at such a time.

3. Bloat is probably inherited and whilst it may take a long time to determine the genetic problems, it makes sense not to repeat a breeding that has produced puppies with bloat.

Points 1 and 2 are things I will continue to try and educate my colleagues about, although owner pressure can have an effect too.

Point 3 is for breeders and breed societies to consider."

Further in the article (written by Lynne Dale):
quote:
Health Record:
The ISBC is keeping a record of helath problems in the breed. It is our intention over the next few years to see if we can get a good knowledge of the problems both past and present we have encountered. This information will eventually be handed to the KV Health Rep. in the hope it will be useful for future research.
unquote

Finally a request for information from people with dogs experiencing problems is given, saying that there are two sections for the storing of information: Open and Closed, the closed section being for those wanting confidentiality.

[Dee Rance]

Sorry to hear about your mother, I know that it is a very nasty complaint, the ulcer thing just popped into my head, so I asked the question, and this is the only way we are going to get to the bottom of this, questions.
I have been feeding pro-biotics for a while now...Bionic Biotic...problem is its really expensive, but really does seem to work, (it has a very good side effect as well, coat growth, don't know how but there it is).
The scientists are the ones that are going to get to the bottom of all of this, but we are the ones that are going to be 'picking up the pieces' and puppies should go to their new homes with a list telling the pet puppy owner just what they should be looking for, I hope that I did this OK, because my first Irish Setter eventually died of Bloat, I was very lucky, I was in on a conversation with Janice, Sue and I can't remember who the others were, but I found out about it then, most don't know, the first they find is when you go down to let your precious pet out in the morning and he/she is dead, so sad, but as the article says only something like 15% die now instead of the vast majority dying in the past.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Thanks Dee and I do acknowledge that you were the one that put us onto the Probiotic and we are very grateful for that. Without this forum, I would never been able to get the information we needed to able to help Riley and his owner improve his health and lessen the worry for them all.

I totally agree with your comments on the role of scientists and us as breeders.

What I think is extremely valuable is this discussion - brainstorming if you like with everyone and we should provide as much of this information that we can give the researchers. Surely it would be beneficial for them to have a few key points that we (not me personally), as breeders and owners who have experienced and managed dogs with stomach disorders. It may point them in the right direction and may lessen the avenues that they may need to explore to find the answers.
We should do up a transcript of all the hard work and discussion that these forums on ES have been able to tease out!

[Dee Rance]

That is a good idea BUT who the hell would we send it all to, it seems that the US has got a lot of research going on into this kind of thing, what is there ''down under''????
Really not sure what is being done here in UK. We would really have to find the rite person to do it though, haven't got the foggiest how to go about that...and this would all have to be 'cleaned up' We do all seem to go off on tangents every now and then...I am as guilty as the next person..ha ha

[Cheryl Gorey]

Yeah, I know, but I have plucked stuff out of discussions before and saved them in a document, because some of the information I have found very valuable. It is difficult to go through pages and pages to find out the bits you want, but I would do it if we could get to the ones who will need it!!

Perhaps we could have it as a "mass mail out" and send to everyone around the world who might care!! :-)) Maybe send a full extract of the discussions with my DNA samples and data collection to the AHT?

Something to think about.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I dont know if it really helps, but I routinely feed pro-biotic yoghourt to my dogs, just a small amount added to their food every second day, on the basis that even a small amount of healthy bacteria will multiply and keep their stomachs in a healthy state. Just the same as I eat probiotic yoghourt most days.

Dry dog food is over processed dead food , in the sense that it doesnt contain beneficial live bacteria, although it provides protein and calories
I dont mind using dry dog food as a base to provide calories but I really believe that dogs need some fresh raw food as well, for a healthy diet and a healthy stomach
I think a few of the more expensive dog foods now include a probiotic, but a tablespoon of live probiotic yoghourt added to dog food three or four times a week will do just the same
They also need it after being on a course of antibiotics - and vets are much too quick to hand out antibiotics for every ailment nowadays. Has anybody found any connection , with bloat after a dog has been on antibiotics?

[eva ciechonska]

Dorne Carr is a microbiologist and a Biochemist and studied under Professor Dave Kelly of Sheffield University. Helicobacter is present in all healthy guts and is routinely tested for in suspected cases of digestive disorders in humans. I have 2 personal friends who have suffered from diagnosed infection by the bacterium, one of which will be taking medication for the rest of his life!! Why is it more likely that dogs have to have a predesposition to GDV in order to react more strongly to diet change etc, where has that one come from? Dogs, like humans react badly to diet change if the diet doesn't suit them full stop. They can be sick, have diarrhoea etc without having a predesposition to anything!!! Don't discount this just because it does not suit your theory and don't blame every gastric disorder on a predisposition to GDV. As Dee put it what DOES come first indeed - well the jury is still out on that one, one way or the other.

[Dee Rance]

Dogs have a pre-disposition to GDV simply because they are built the way they are, GDV isn't a problem in little barrel chested dogs, it IS in big or bigish breeds like Setters Danes Greyhounds etc. They all have deep narrow chests this has been know for many years, Personally I can't get my head around the 'narrow' part of it, but this is what vets and scientist have pinpointed as a 'breed predisposition' not as a definite, just as a pre disposed body structure, if they didn't have this they would, I suspect, though I don't know, not get GDV which I think refers to the 'twist' of the gut.
And yes the jury is out on the 'chicken or the egg' but can someone please get some of the scientist to get to the bottom of it!!!!!

[eva ciechonska]

That is not quite correct Dee. Little barrel chested dogs can be afflicted with GDV. Jack Russels can be, so can Irish Water Spaniels, Shnauzers, Hungarian Viszlas, to name a few. Infact at the Seminar on GDV that your daughter gave and that we all went to I was actually sitting with a well known breeder of Irish water Spaniels and we had a long discussion on the problems the breed has.
Until we get a definite answer we must be open to ALL research and not close our minds to any one aspect of it.

[Dee Rance]

Irish Water Spaniels Hungerian Viszlas Shnauzers are not small breeds the Viszla was 'manufactured' by crossing different breeds and one of them was the Irish Setter, and I believe I have read somewhere that there is Irish Setter in the Water Spaniel, That I am not sure of I only think..But these dogs are Built the same as our Setters Deep chested breeds, I agree that the Jack Russel isn't but you learn something every day, I don't think that I said that they didn't suffer from bloat only that it was highly unlikely that you suffered from GDV the twist not the stomach problem everything can suffer from a stomach problem that actually has a stomach but the twist is highly unlikely, we have a Viszla in our family it is the same shape as the Setter just without hair...
I could give you a list of all the dogs that 'can' be affected by GDV just don't have enough space and cant spell most of the breeds, and most if not all seem to conform to the medium/large/giant breeds With deep chest and narrow spring of rib...look at all the research on the subject...

[Laura Kolbach]

Dee, I can assure you that the Vizsla has NOTHING to do with the Irish Setter. :-)) The Hungarian vizsla is one of the ancient breeds of Hungary. It developed independently of all the other vizsla breeds and its origin dates back to the Magyars (=Hungarians) conquering the Carpathian Basin at the end of the 9th century. Dogs coming here with the Hungarian tribes settling in the Carpathian Basin most likely mixed with hunting dogs of the Slav people living in this territory at that time.
The world “vizsla” appears in written material dating back to the 1300s. Early in the 16th century, people in mansion houses were involved in breeding vizsla – which is proven by several documents found in different archives. Therefore, we know that a vizsla type dog was used to hunt small game even before the time of Turkish occupation of Central Hungary in the 16th-17th centuries.

[eva ciechonska]

The Irish Water Spaniel is a short backed, barrel ribbed dog (breed standard), regardless of whether it was crossed with an IS in it's early history, the Miniture Shnauzer is not a big dog and, yes, Jack Russels can fully twist. All the research on the subject has been undertaken with deep chested, dogs such as the Great Dane, the Standard Poodle etc. in mind and who are more predesposed.
You said in your original comment that short barrel ribbed dogs don't have a problem with GDV. All I am saying is that it is not strictly correct.

[Dee Rance]

Hi there Laura
I read this in a couple of the books on the Viszla, I apologise if this is wrong, but again you can only go by what you have read, as I said we have a Viszla in the family and books were read to see which dog was best for a family, the Viszla was the dog that was decided upon...but in the books that were read, all be them written by US and UK authors said that IRS were in the back of the pedigree, and I have talked to people that have the breed and they all seem to have read the same books, but as I have said before we can all learn something every day, this is obviously my day for learning...