Are dogs too expensive?

[Christine]

In Germany an officially bred setter with FCI/VDH-documents costs about 900 € up to 1300 €. I wouldn`t get myself a dog without such documents (for many reasons) and so I would always pay that price. What else should I do...
I know breeders whose dogs (labradors) cost 1400 € and 1500 €. It`s the regular price for a brown labrador (they are "en vogue" at the moment, that`s why they are so expensive). I cannot decide if these prices are justified, as I´m no breeder and I don`t know how much it costs to bring up a litter (stud dog, vet, food etc.)
I know many people who bought their dogs at breeder`s who don`t breed officially, that means the dogs have no FCI/VDH-documents and cost 400 € to 600 €, people who bought their dogs at breeder`s like this to save money. I don`t have to mention that I think it is totally wrong to support these breeders. But I think the large regular prices "force" some people to do so. Don`t you think that puppies with documents are too expensive and lead people to socalled breeders and other obscure sellers?
Don`t get me wrong: I would never support any other breeder than one whose dogs have documents but I`m worried that these large prices help the wrong, if you understand what I mean...?

[Susan L.]

This is a tough one. I had never bought a dog off the internet before. But Irish Setters have become very rare around the midwest and when I went looking for our new pup I ruled out a few things off the bat when contacting breeders or so called breeders. First off, if they had dew claws, it was a no go. I know that at least for every pure breed dog we have owned if they didn't remove the dews they hadn't a clue about hunting dogs. We just do not like them on our puppies. Secondly, it was then I asked the usually health questions and for pedigree information which for me isn't much since I only knew from the irish setter sites I saw who was well known. After having gotten my dog, a woman from an irish setter rescue contacted me from a forum where I posted where he was from and she told me you got your pup from a puppy mill. I was very upset since we loved him and thought he was wonderful. She said we wouldn't have an irish setter rescue here in this state if it weren't for her. She breeds over 30 puppies a year which in their book is a mill. She does do this for a living. For 33 some years I guess. I asked her how many of her dogs they have? She said we had two recently. Such great dogs she kept one and her daughter the other. So I contacted the breeder. She told me they are up her butt all the time and she warned them she would use a weapon if they came on her property again. My dog is healthy for 2 1/2 year so far, better than our setters in the past. No allergies so far, whoo hoo. And I would buy from her again even though this woman told me what she did. I paid a fair price, $550.00 and then shipping. I don't recommend buying a dog sight unseen, but it worked for us. There is a new topic for discussion! Has the internet helped or hurt breeders. I feel it gives us a chance to own a breed we might not have available in our area. Experience dog breeds that were hard to come by before. But there is a huge trust factor involved on both sides. Does anyone here sell to someone they didn't meet? I spoke for many hours with our potential breeder and even then was so afraid I might get taken! In the end it all worked out great and I have met others online who have gotten dogs from her and were so happy with them. But it could have been a disaster. Luck was on our side.

[ursula wilby]

No Susan, I would never sell a puppy to someone I had not met face to face. I can understand that there may be some distances involved, but I make all the effort of rearing my puppies in the best way I know, and I would expect the would-be-buyers to at least come and see for themselves if this is what they want.

[Melinda Auld]

Hi Ursula

Both my Irish came from interstate here in Australia. To have met the breeders beforehand would have required a 10 hour round plane trip (or more) on both occasions!

With my bitch, Myra was at least able to vouch for me to the breeder (and vice versa) since they are good friends. But for my dog, I had to contact the breeder, who didn't know me from a bar of soap! We spent several hours on the phone, getting to know each other and what we both expected. Not ideal, but a real drawback of living in such a large country, I guess...

[ursula wilby]

I can see the difficulty Melinda, but I would still want to see the person that is going to have one of my puppies.
Or at a pinch, see their good friend (someone like Myra vouching for the buyer).

All dogs I have bought I have also gone to pick up myself.
Perhaps I am old-fashioned like that, but I want some personal contact in both directions and just a phone-call or a few e-mails would not be good enough.

That does not mean that I regard all puppy-buyers that are not able to go and visit the breeder at least once as being less suited to own a dog...but I would still not want to sell one of my puppies to them.

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

I agree with Ursula, I would not be able to sell a puppy to someone I did not meet in person. Selling part is the worst part of breeding I think. I am also very strict not to sell to someone who is a full-time worker, unless they have solved the problem with someone who take care of the dog when working.

[Kristin]

I don't know, but if price is a problem for you try a rescue :) There are lots of lads and lasses out there that need good homes :)

[Marta Magi]

Just a comment to agree with every single word Ursula has written in connection this matter.
No need to tell anything more, she has done it for me! Thank you, Ursula!

[kathie jo ottinger]

I agree also Marta, Thanks Ursula. Everyone I know breeds only for the love of the breed and to improve their line. I can not believe how much they want for mix puppies and people are paying it Eleven years ago I had to give away oops puppies (Aussie -Lab). I have only breed one time, I spent more on care and stud fees then I made. I did get the puppy I was breeding for.

[Christine]

One ore try :-)
Don`t you all think that the prices (NO MATHER IF JUSTIFIED OR NOT) lead puppy-buyers to the wrong breeders? To those who sell cheaper dogs with no papers? This is what I consider to be the main problem not if the prices are justified, that is an different topic, isn`t it?
Maybe this is a problem that is typical for Germany. It annoys me when people tell me "1000 € is too much, i know cheaper bure-bred dogs" or "we want our bitch to have puppies once, the father is going to be the neighbour`s retriever etc, no x-ray, nothing..." These people have no idea what breeding really means, but they sell cheap dogs that idiots buy!!

[ursula wilby]

I can not see that lowering the price of pedigree dogs so that all can afford to own them, would give you the "right" type of owners.

To me, the type of person that will buy a dog becourse its cheap is not the type of puppy-buyer I would want anyway. The initial cost of the dog is only a very small proportion of what needs to be spent on a dog during its lifetime.

I dont think the type of puppy-buyer you are discribing Christine, is only found in Germany...I think they are all over the world. Judging by the fact that dogs looking for a new home at around the age of 1 year (at least in Sweden) are normally crossbreeds or purebreds without papers.
Meaning puppies that were once cheap and have now grown out of their "cute" puppy-stage.

I think there is also a difference in approach when you are selling puppies.
Serious breeders I know are constantly discuraging unsuitable people from buying their breed. I certainly know I am!
But if you just have a litter of say 10 puppies, without papers and with an uncertain background you may just want to sell them quickly (and perhaps make the profit you dreamt about).
Never mind if the home or owner is suitable.

[Christine]

Anyway, I think it`s a pity that so many pepole don`t know about the importance of papers.
I would even go as far to say that these dogs have more health problems this is what I`ve experienced during the last years looking at some friends`dogs...
Today again our newspaper is full of ads with dogs to sell, ten ads and only one dog with VDH-papers.
I also think it`s a shame that some buyers call the breeders on the phone and their first question is, how much the puppy would be. I would ring off immediately! (can you say that to ring off? I mean finishing the pnone call! :-)
I know what you mean Ursula. You as a serious breeder wouldn`t want buyers who want cheap dogs anyway...and you are right.

[Ilona Crotogino]

Hi Christine,

Really? Are setters that expensive in Germany?
Here in Western Australia we paid $600 for each dog with papers, and from a reputable breeder(don't know what this is in Euro, guess about 400???). I know that another breeder takes about 700 Dollars, and I think even this is justified, as it costs a lot of time, money, expertise and committment (aehh, ist das richtig geschrieben?) to breed dogs properly.

It's so hard to talk about money, especially when it's about our darlings....but you are right. The German prices seem very high. And I agree with you that these prices support backyard breeders who have no clue. I would pay whatever it takes, and I would certainly not go to a puppy mill - or not buy a dog at all. After all, our best friends are worth more than all the money in the world and deserve the best weclome to the world.

Viele liebe Gruesse aus Australien!
Ilona