Ethics for studdogs?

[ursula wilby]

A member on this site wrote about making sure that her studdogs were only used on good bitches. I totally agree.
It would be good if stud-dog-owners were more selective when it comes to the bitches they will let their dogs mate.
It would (in my view) be excellent if stud-dog owners did a bit of research regarding the nearest family of the bitch and perhaps not only focus on show-results but also look at health-issues.

On the other hand I had a friend with a very successfull studdog of a small breed. And she would let almost EVERYBODY use her dog. In every other way she was a very serious breeder that was very selective when it came to litters she would breed herself.
When asked about how she could let just about anyone use her studdog, she explained it like this.

"I am not helping the breed by NOT letting people that want to mate their bitches with my dog. If I refuse, they will just find another dog. And would breeding with a dog that is nowhere near as sound as mine help the breed generally?
I dont think so!"

I actually had no argument against her way of looking at things. Her dog WAS very sound, had none of the problems common in the breed, he was well qualified in the ring and on top of that a friendly soul.

Worth discussing?

[Dee Rance]

For fear of getting my head bitten off again, I have to answer this one, You are correct in what you say Ursula, in both cases.....
I bought my first bitch, on a kind of impulse buy, and after deciding to a) show her and b) breed from her. I had to think very hard as to how I was going to go about this, I did the research into which dog I was going to use, I decided on Sh Ch Corneven Lovebird, he had all the attributes that my girl needed, I have to say that she wasn't the best of bitches, but after using another good dog, on her daughter, I had improved MY stock (unfortunately) I lost all of them in the early 80's hence I was out of the ring for about 15 years, and now I have been looking for another Stud dog and it is difficult to find something that I think that will ''go with'' and ''complement'' my girl.
Breeding should not be entered into on a whim, you should be able to say that each generation has improved your line, by being selective about the dog you use, not just the 'dog of the moment' the 'popular sire syndrome'.
And yes your friend was correct as well, some people just don't care which dog they use, so long as they get puppies. Your friend by allowing her dog to be used has helped puppy owners to have something that is at least part way sound, (your friends dog being the sound part)
I am sure that there will be someone who will disagree with me!!!!!

[ursula wilby]

As I said...i can see both sides of this.
But have to say I favour the first one...

Dee!
Whoever would dare to bite your head off?
Dont they know that you can reverse a bloody BUS? And go forward as well...:-) I think of you every time I contemplate reversing in to a parking-space...

[Dee Rance]

Ah yes going backwards in a bus is easier than going forwards in London!!!
I agree that the first, is much better than the second, but I can see the logic of the second, the bitch owner should do the research as well as the dog owner, and there are so many health problems that I know of, and some stud dog owners just seem to ignore them, they seem to be coming from the dogs side, well maybe a combination, but if the money keeps coming in who is going to 'kill' the 'money cow'????

[Charlotte Godart - Riverwood]

I agree with you Dee,
It is a very delicate subject.
Some owners select as well males for their females and the females which come for their males.
I say that are people passionate by the good health of the irish setter.
But regrettably some are not still honest.
Think first of the money above all !
And there I think for my future choice.
Another problem, they are the problems hidden in the pedrigrees not always easy to know, because almost each have healthy, yes healthy dogs but carrier of poor health.
I hope that my English is correct ;-)))

[Dee Rance]

Hi Charlotte, I do understand what you are saying, when I breed my first bitch she had 'unforeseen' problems and unfortunately so did the dog, he had the same problem, hence I lost all my lines with 'bloat' Fortunately my bitch isn't behind any lines, but the dog is, this problem, (I think), is a recessive gene, so both sides must carry it, so there is a chance that one third of a litter does NOT have it, but the other two thirds COULD carry it or be affected, or both, (that is a simplistic view of gene's) if you don't know then you could have a problem with your puppies. Its the pet puppy owner that is the one that is going to suffer the most, not knowing how to deal with bloat, and that is just one of the many problems that are going around at the moment. This is if you don't know, when there are problems that you DO know.......
Where do these things come from?? How far back should you go??and some people would say ''why bother, they have to die of something'' or ''it must be something that you have done wrong, I have never had anything like that in my lines before'' That is what I call the 'Ostrich syndrome' they know its there but will not admit to it....And yes both of these things have been said to me..

[ursula wilby]

Perhaps I should mention that I am talking about late 70's and early 80's.
I do think that makes a difference. I would hope that we have become more aware of all that can lurk behind what appears to be a very sound individual.

[Dee Rance]

Ursula would you mind if I put a couple of questions to stud dog owners and brood bitch owners??? on your forum??? It is connected but I don't want to push my nose in and upset anyone, Ha Ha :D))))) and this is connected to modern day animals

[ursula wilby]

Dee, you can ask whatever you want! So just go ahead!!!!
Looking forward to it :-)

[Susan Stone]

Well, if you ask the stud dog, I bet he wouldn't give a d... to ethics;-))

As to the ethics of the stud dog owner it is not such an easy question to answer: WE all know what SHOULD be the answer. ie inform the bitch owner about any possible problems in the dog's line, about problems in his siblings, information about the dog's temperament, etc etc - then: ask about the bitch, request to see health certificates, ask about problems in that line, ask how the pups will be reared, socialised and homed...

BUT:
when it comes to being asked for a mating by your dog, you are
a) pleased...
b) proud...
c) flattered...
d) think your dog may be of benefit to the bitch's breeding...
e) think it would be nice getting some of the money spent on your dogs coming in again...
f) think 'well he's a great stud dog I can't let him waste'...
g) sure he can do better than some dogs that are out there...
h) woul d love to see 'little uns' by your darling...
i) like the idea of easy money...
j) feel this is a lot easier than breeding puppies yourself!
... what have a forgotten?

So what it really needs is an official limitation to stud work for each dog, depending on the size of the breed and the level of inbreeding.

[Dee Rance]

My questions kind of stems from what you have just written Susan....Perhaps the questions above should be asked before every mating???
First....would YOU (that is a general you) inform everyone who comes to your DOG, of any problems that may or have arisen in the past with any offspring that they have sired, and any of HIS brothers or sisters or, his parents, or their parents????
Second.....as a brood bitch owner, would you inform any person who OWNS a stud dog that you are taking your bitch to of any problem that SHE may have, again regarding any puppies from previous litters, her brothers or sisters or her parents or their parents???
Do people out there feel that there should be some kind of register for this kind of thing? If yes, how would it be achieved? could people here, that seem to have knowledge of the ''past'' of this breed be able to put in some kind of database?? Without back biting of their 'rival' owners and breeders....I think for some people this is going to be VERY difficult.....
Lastly do people think that this kind of thing is necessary? or is it a question of 'they have to die of something'??
Thanks Ursula for letting me use your Forum...

[Dee Rance]

I had a discussion with a friend a few days ago about all the tests that 'should' be done on our dogs and was told that there are far too many. If something 'new' came up how many would have 'more' tests done on our dogs, how many of us have the 'annual PRA late onset test'????? they are published, and the number for last year wasn't many, in fact practically non existent, I know that I haven't had the girls hip scored yet, I know that this should be done, (although my old girl is too old to breed from,) but haven't got around to it YET. I think with some of these 'preventative' things some people find it financially difficult. Perhaps if there is some sought of financial incentive because most of these things cost over £100+
Any suggestions???????? And I think Debbie you are one of the few that would declare everything, well perhaps people who reply to this forum will consider it, because we are obviously interested in the health of our breed......And that all comes back to choosing the rite 'mate' for your animal be that stud do or brood bitch, a lot more for-thought should go into this choice, other than ''lets just go to the 'dog of the moment'' how do we know that as well as diminishing the gene pool by everyone using the same dog that we aren't introducing new problems as well......

[ursula wilby]

As a (once) stud-dogowner...yes I would inform and I did. I had a champion pug affected with furunkolos (?) and so after this was confirmed, I stopped all further matings.
Not understanding that plenty of pug-people would happily carry on breeding from affected stock. Same with my second pug (different illness - not to be seen neither tested for). I said no to a very nice bitch, and explained the reasons.

As a (now) brood-bitch-owner, yes I will inform of all I regard relevant healthwise etc. I will go back as far as her mother and also her litter-mates + previous litters.
Unfortunatly I found that, although being very honest about things, not all studowners will behave in the same way.
As far as database is concerned, I doubt if ANYONE would put anything there that they were not FORCED to. Either due to ignorence, fear of never being able to sell another puppy or money-reasons.

We have a great data-site at the Swedish kennel-club, but that contains ONLY official test-results. And even there you (sometimes) have to read between the lines.
We have to have clear hips before mating setters. (A or B)
All hip-scores are official and on the database.
There are lots of dogs that are not X-rayed, when it comes to pet-owners I can understand this and personally find it hard to motivate these types of owners to X-ray when they feel their dog is perfectly allright.
Yet there are also quite a few show-dogs winning in Sweden that have never been X-rayed at all.
Why?
These dogs go to loads of far away shows, so it can not be shortage of money.
Could it be that they have had a "quiet" X-ray done and the results were not up to scratch, so lets not X-ray this dog officially?
I am not saying this is the case, but I find very few other reasons for having a potential stud-dog with great titles, yet no X-ray.
I hope I am wrong.