Group judge chatting to eventual group winner before judging has even started??

[Carmel Murphy]

Would like to hear the opinion of show people on the scenario of breed judge(FCI (cacib) show) who has just awarded BOB to exhibitor and is happily and publicily seen chatting to the person before he judges the same person in the group and awards this person group 1 ??? Personally I think this very inappropriate!!!!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Absolutely true Lynne.........a calming voice. I always remember, when I first started, questioning the success of a very well known exhibitor because to my novice mind his dogs were not beautifully presented compared to others. Then I judged my first open show (after 5 years) and had one of these dogs entered. The head and everything about that particular dog took my breath away and I understood. Wait until you have judged and see how your perspective alters. I have been in this game 37 years, nothing has changed except perhaps the camaraderie around the ring and it has become more intense. People are impatient and not prepared to wait for success any more, but this is a breed which welcomes new exhibitors and it is possible to get to the top with a good dog. Of course political judging goes on but hey, take it in your stride and move on.
Tania, it was only 18 months ago that you brought a raw 6 month puppy to his first ever show. I trimmed him for you and told you then that he was very promising. You are just starting. Wait and see. There are times when I felt jaded when, perhaps, the dogs I had weren't good enough to get to the top but I am still here and have achieved most of what I have set out to do. It can take time!!!!

[Carmel Murphy]

"a calming voice"? I do think all in this discussion have had calming voices!!!! And as Lynne has rightly said there are "numerous reasons for low entries but a biased judge is one of them" I think accepting bad judges is burying our heads in the sand!! As I said before encourage the good judges and vote with your entries with the bad ones(the breed doesnt need them!!) And all this said with a calm voice;o))

[eva ciechonska]

I have never shown or judged in Ireland Carmel so I bow to your greater experience and I am sure you are right. I have also heard that exhibitors refuse to bring their dogs into the ring in order to prevent someone gaining a major award, something that does not happen over here. What would you call that? Maybe looking at both sides of the fence is what is needed.

[Ossian]

Eva that may have happened under the old system in Ireland where you needed so many dogs in a class to "make a major" (dont people pull their dogs out of junior classes in UK to stop a dog getting points toward its Junior Warrant)

Under FCI the judges ruling on "excellent" is what decides who does receive an award and who doesnt. So taking a dog out of circulation for the show doesnt affect that anymore

[Carmel Murphy]

Yes under the old system that did happen!! I didnt agree with that either as that was not so much against a judge but against an individual dog! Bad sportmanship in my opinion!! In the new system you should accept the judge's opinion of your dog(graded excellent, very good, good and so on!) And we have had our share of very good gradings!! Thankfully mostly excellents though;o)) If I think a judge is facey I just dont enter but would not withdraw a dog at a show unless its lame, in heat or unwell on the day!!

[eva ciechonska]

Ossian, only a few months ago I discussed the exact situation with a friend in Ireland who knew that there were enough dogs entered in the junior class for her dog to win points towards a junior warrant but knew those dogs would be pulled. I have never ever seen it happen here, not at championship shows (where the entry is normally too big for that to make any difference) nor at open shows where it could. I have never ever pulled my own dogs and find it unsporting to do so (reference also the discussion on bad sportsmanship.
Thank you for pointing out to me that it cannot happen any more. Sad though that it used to.

[Ossian]

Hi Eva
you know I was just thinking.... I wonder if that is why there is an increase in bad sportsmanship. You used to HAVE to get on with your fellow exhibitors because you knew they could pull their dog when you were waiting for a major. In US you see them all the time emailing each other and tryng to "build a major". In other words getting the requisite number of dogs entered.

Now that you dont need the dogs to get the award do you think that has affected the way we look at other exhibitors Kind of "get lost" If no one else is here its ALL mine!!!

[Carmel Murphy]

But if you are on your own, you still have to get an excellent grading to win the Green Star!! A judge can with hold the award if he/she thinks the dog is not up to breed standard!! I have seen a dog or bitch being graded Very Good even if they are the only exhibits there! So it isnt always that easy!!

[Gillian Sterritt]

Yes but you got to ask why bother when well known exhibitors win with stuff that a new comer would never stand a chance with? There are many examples of dogs winning honours simply because of who is at the other end of the lead, and dogs who deserved to receive top honours but never could because they were in not so well known hands! After 7 years of showing I have become very jaded and ask myself why bother its a waste of time and money? My first bitch is currently sitting here with 4 green stars, all of which she won of in my hands however it is unlikely that she will ever be gain the next 3 to be made up into an Irish Champion. Don't get me wrong I am not a sore loser and I don't expect to win all of the time, there has been times when I think well if you were judging yourself thats where I would have placed you too! But when you are standing in a ring with faces, its takes a very special judge to do their own thing and judge the dogs. If dog showing is so fair then when why do many novice exhibitors hand their dogs over to their breeder to handle them? Because they know they don't stand a chance making it in their hands!!! I have 1st hand experience of this!!!!!!! I guess what keeps us going back for more is the hope that this judge will judge the dogs and not who is on the other end of the lead. Sometimes its very easy to for the not so well known exhibitor to feel whats the point its irrelevant what I have on the end of my lead!

[Ossian]

This IS inteesting! When we watched Westminster I was talking to several owners about professional handlers. A lot of US owners have pro handlers on their dogs and the owners who handle there own dogs always tell you that the pro handlers have it "all sown up".

Now I do know that the pros work hand in glove with a lot of the judges (in much the same way a faction in UK will operate) but remarkably I have heard the top handler George Alston say that when he judges he will never discount a good owner handler.

Gillian - I was given really good advice (which I dont always follow) Believe in you and believe in your dog. Learn your craft, practise, present your dog (and yourself)at top notch standard and when the judge looks at you in the line up look straight back "I dare you to walk past this dog!

I can tell you that it works - not always - but try it!

[Carmel Murphy]

I too get a bit nervous when showing but recently I have started looking the judge in the eye and so far it seems to get better results;o)) Perhaps before I was a bit invisible!!!!!!!

[Ossian]

Are you sure youre not winking at them???