Problems with hunting setter lovers?

[Michaela]

There are some people on this plathform wich seem to have some problems with hunting in general and specially with my pictures of duck-hunting - I have read the comments between Frances McKimm and Susan Morris - also some comments about the video of Petra.

When I startet to be member of "Exclusively Setters - Home for Irish Setter Lovers Around the World" I thoughted this would be also for Setter-Lovers which understand the setter as a hunting dog - I undestand me as setter-lover!

But I if I read the dialog (comments) between Frances and Susann I felt not very welcome on this site with telling hunting stories and showing hunting-pictures. Why I'm not worthy to be a Setter-Lover or Setter-breeder if I show some pictures of hunting with my setter? So I started to think about if it is better to open a new NING only for setter lovers which can accept the setter as an hunting dog - for pointing and versatile used hunting-dog.

On the other side I think it would be a shame to go on with seperating here at Exc.Setters the Setter-Lovers in Hunting and Non-Hunting-only-Showing - it would be poor for each side to do not know from the other side - it would be poor for the race also ..

I think to seperate the hunting ones in a special Ning would not be the solution - I hope - so hwo can we solve the problem?

This are my thoughts - sorry - also sorry for my bad english, I hope you understand what I want to express

[Michaela]

Dear Frances, thanks for answering.

I copied your comment on my pc before you delete it - you wrote to Susann the following citation:

"......Oh well takes all sorts to make the world, but disgusts me that this sort of thing is accepted on a Irish Setter lovers site - but to note that the people who accept this behaviour are not breeders, and anyway to be a hunter and kill for nothing you need to have an rather odd way of thinking! Did you see the photo of all the dead ducks? What's the point? and where is the fun? in hunting this way....."

this seemed to be a anti-hunting comment - maybe I did understand something wrong .. sometimes my english is not so good, sometimes it come to missunderstandings because of the foreign language .. than please forgive me .. but it is difficult for me to align your answering here in that discussion with your written comment to Susann (citation above)

[Christiane Lohmann]

Frances, would you like me to come and roll you on the correct side and treat you with a little green twig as well ??? ;-)
But I am unsure what hornsignal would be needed, so you better stay...

[Christiane Lohmann]

How sad;-(((

Have you ever read the "Early Survey of Setters" ?
Have you met Doggie Hubbard and talked with him about the 'real' oldtimers ?
How about the great irish famine, when IS were best fowling dogs ? CATCHING pheasants that were caught with glue traps...

The idea about ONLY "run, find and point" came with field trials late 19th century. Travelling became more easy then. But these trials are only a competition. Some purists said, that retrieving would spoil the nose, as the game then is too close to a dogs nose. But these people are rare and more pointer focussed. Especially the Irish setters have always been more versatile and known for great jobs in water.
Being descendents of the big landspaniel, it comes naturally that they also love to do a spaniel like job, when given the opportunity.

Strangely I recently thought that IRWS are even more resembling spaniels in their way of prey drive and characters. But this is off topic.

What I would like to know is, could you give me some sources about setters NOT being ment to retrieve game ?
You might know that I run the archive of germans pointer and setters club and have a fairly good library. I could only find statements about setters being true hunting dogs....

P.S.: About Foei Haaas...
Chasing a healthy hare is always a deadly sin ! Be it a show dog, a field trial dog or a hunting dog !

[Christiane Lohmann]

Monika, I do my very best to understand different points of view. But I fail ! Why does it make you or others sad ? WHAT makes you said in my postings ? I would be grateful for an explanation !
The fact that it includes dead animals ? In this discussion we are down to the roots and begin to even argue about the status of IS as hunting dogs. They are allowed as pets, as show dogs and - maybe...on sunny days out on green fields jumping round and sniffing for birdies ? (ok, I am provocative;-))) please excuse me) But somehow it seems to frighten some people to go back in history and find these red dogs always been sound gundogs ! And what does a hunter with a gun ? He kills animals. And what does he expect from his dog ? To help him in every way.
I have had many arguments with anti-hunting folks. They stand in front of me and bark at me that - you are female and should give birth to children instead kill animals...while they bite into a bread with salami. When I ask them, where their salami tree growns or if they expect the cow, which skin they have wrapped around their feet, has committed suicide, they have no answers to explain me their point of view.
I am afraid that we end up in a world with lots of poor animals locked up behind walls, so their life and death does not disturb anybody. And our meat will meet us safe and sound wrapped up in plastic...

[ursula wilby]

Is this not a very narrow view Wilko?

You dont like photos of setters with dead animals in their mouths.
I can accept that.
I dont like photos of setters standing at a show, head and tail held. Not becourse I find this distasteful and am only able to picture a setter out in the field running or pointing...but due to the fact that I personally find all those photos utterly boring.
But I do understand that these photos are of people showing the dogs they love. And if that is the way its done...so be it.

I mainly ignore those (boring) photos and concentrate on the ones I like. The ones showing a bit more of the dogs soul.
Those are photos that appeal to me.

I find few things more boring than spending a whole day at a show, I would rather work with my dogs. But then I dont hunt...and dumbbells are just about all my dogs get to retrieve.
If we are going to be purists, even a wooden dumbbell is a no-no when it comes to a setter...if I understand things correctly.

I honestly can not see that the photos showing what the setter is required to do at a field-trial can be upsetting to anyone.
And I do enjoy this site a lot - even if I dont hunt, nor show (more than I have to)!

The fact that we all can join in and show the sort of lives our setters live is the greatness of this site, it would be fantastic if it could stay like that!

[Christiane Lohmann]

quote:
"Rossmore setters were exceptional field dogs. They learned readily and were excellent retrievers. Lord Rossmore stated that he had seen one of his setters dive after a shot-winged duck on a cold winter day near Little Hollywood." IS history by Col. Schildbred 1921

And Mrs Bepler has a whole chapter in her book, about "how to teach a setter to retrieve". And states about an IS who "behaves not only excellenty but brilliantly, in the one day on grouse, snipe, woodcock, pheasant, partridge and fur."

Wilko, I am very much afraid about what you wrote. It shows a tendency that simply gives me shiver. Hunting in your country has been banned for many years.
Now in order to get rid of the many geese, the government of Netherlands has killed them with gas by a 'pest control enterprise" and - apart from many other unethical and non animal-loving points - wasted natural sources. Latest figures talk about up to 80.000 geese.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Older books about shooting in Ireland generally talk about setters retrieving, including retrieving from water. For example Gerald Fitzgerald's book Pot Luck written in the nineteen thirties.
Russell's The Whole Art of Setter Training also has a chapter on retrieving
And yes,there is a reference to the Rossmore dogs retrieving. The cousin of the present Lord Rossmore has an IRWS ( a son of my Dalriach Auchindoun) used for shooting, who also retrieves
The idea that setters only find and point birds seems to have originated in England about the time that field trials began, which was also when the separate retriever breeds were developing.
Setters used for rough shooting and wildfowling in Ireland still retrieve.
Most of my red and whites will retrieve if required to do so, although they are not as enthusiastic about it as a spaniel. My son has taken IRWS picking up on a pheasant shoot, but finds they get bored quickly and tend to wander off looking for live birds after a few retrieves :))

[Johanna Blacklake]

"there are other dog breeds for retrieving, killing."

This sounds really provocative... Do you really somehow compare retreiving with killing? The way I understand hunting with an Irish setter is that retrieving is one part of the whole performance. In stead at least in my country KILLING is NOT included in ANY BREED of a dog.

BTW I've used many times dead game when practicing with my dogs, that is mostly with retrieving but also when we have trained "blood track". The dogs are never allowed to play with the catch though, as they are always supposed to carry the birds undamaged.

On the other parts I do agree your point of view. :-))) I'm really a show enthusiast myself. ;-)))

[ursula wilby]

I was once told by a well known swedish hunter and writer in hunting magazines that the difference between english and german pointing breeds was the fact that the german breeds were not to hand over live game.
Meaning they should be killed by the dog if they were not killed outright by the shot.

[Johanna Blacklake]

Never heard about that. At least in today's rules in Finland it is said that the dog is disqualified from the test if the dog damages the catch by eating, tearing, biting or buring it. And that is mentioned in the rules for continental breeds.

[ursula wilby]

Eating, tearing, biting or whatever (I am a bit uncertain what "buring" is) to me is not quite the same as taking a grip that presses the (for instance bird) ribcage together so that it dies.

I can well see that when it comes to practical hunting, dead retrieved game must be far better than a live bird handed over to you.
On the other hand, I am not a hunter and have just watched fieldtrials without taking part.

But I have used one of my setters for practical hunting and what the hunters needed was a dog that would find and get the birds (and yes even hares) that were shot and not killed. And yes, my 10 year old (never before allowed to hunt at all) handled that.

[Johanna Blacklake]

Yes, I saw that coming that you would not consider that not _quite the same_... ;-)) Anyway I think there is a huge risk if the dog is supposed to kill the game that by doing that the dog damages the game, so personally I see it quite the same.

Anyway, as far as I know in Finland it is not allowed that the dog kills the game.

And buring meant taking 6 feet under (or something like that). ;-) Sorry if I did not write that correctly...