Irish Setter - bad recall

[Nicola Seed]

 

Hi All,

We need some advice. We have a 20 month old Irish Setter who we adore - however the last 6 months his recall has been getting worse and worse and we don't know what to do.

We never had a problem when he was younger, he would always stay near us when off the lead in the park, but now he runs far away out of sight and will not come back however much we call or use the whistle. We have whistle trained him which was effective at first, but now it only works 60% of the time. He sometimes just ignores it as if he can't hear us.

We have had situations recently where he has been on the run in the park for at least two hours with neither me or my partner being able to get near him, it is almost like a game where he circles as but won't let us come close.

We have tried a lot of tactics, making us the centre of fun with balls, always having his favourite treats with us etc and would love some other suggestions. We try to always make him come over to us not just for putting him back on the lead so he doesn't get a negative association that it is the end of fun time.

As he is so active it would be a shame not to be able to let him off the lead, but this last resort is fast approaching as it is too distressing to let him off when he doesn't come back, and he has run out of the park gates into roads so we fear for his safety. We have tried extendable leads but as a strong male he keeps on breaking them.

Help us! He is such a loving dog that is glued to our sides indoors, but he is a dog with personality and is really stubborn, and is making the twice daily walks with him not enjoyable as one is always keeping an eye on him and scared he doesn't come back.

Any of your own experiences or tips would be much appreciated. He has not been neutered - could this have anything to do with his stubborness?

 

[Howard Glansfield]

I do sympathise,I have had the same problem (not with my current dogs) and the answer,for me,was not to put the dog on the lead when he eventually came back.This hasn't worked for you.Sometimes just ignoring him and walking in the other direction will make him curious and he might come to see what is going on.Half the battle is not to get excited and distressed by his non compliance as he will know and ,probably,enjoy the excitement you are giving off.

I am sorry I can't be more constructive but if he is running onto roads the answer has to be a long lead(the sort used for training,not the extendable type) .Can you let him off in a fenced area somewhere?

It may make you feel better to know that a friend, who is an excellent dog trainer, had a lab who seemed perfect but one day was let off in an open area and he took off .Eight hours later he returned! The friend had to praise him because he did come back....eventually!

Good Luck!

[Sue Paterson]

Sadly I think there is no quick fix Nicola. Its back to basics with the training.

I feel for you because I'm in a similar position with our 15 month old. He loves other dogs and whilst he is reasonably reliable when there are no other dogs, or just our own, if he sees a new face, he'll go... and usually a long way. Then its pointless calling or whistling. We just have to hope that the other owners are sympathetic and will hang around for us to get close enough to call him in.

Unfortunately, at the weekend, a couple would not wait even though I called and politely asked if they would let me catch up to get him. They had nearly reached the car park with our youngster in tow before he heard me and stopped. Was I furious?! Not with him, but with them!!!!!

Anyway its back to lead work for us, and gradually a long training lead, and in a more confined space too, I'm afraid. You sound like you're trying all the right things...I look forward to seeing other people's advice  too...but until I find that magic wand, I'll have to try the hard way! :)

[Fran Griffin]

Hi Nicola.  I am picking up a number of mixed things here. 

I would like to know if he is going off on hunting expeditions.  I also see that he is running in circles, which is a common issue which a lot of people with Setters and the hunt point retrieve type dogs encounter.

It is extremely difficult to give advice on a forum, as with these dogs we use a large but enclosed area to assess them first of all and then use a number of trial and error techniques to try and alter the dogs perception as to what recall actually means (and what it does not mean) and then we work and build up from that point onwards.  I am also reluctant to  say to go and find a trainer in your area, because unless they have real experience of these type of problems, can work outside in a more controlled environment, you might not get anywhere. They might have vast experience of collies and GSD's etc, but gun dogs?  a lot of people involved in training haven't a clue. Its pays to ring around, and to ensure that they are going to use motivational methods and not end up doing far more harm,  The training profession is totally unregulated, and there are a lot of idiots and even ignorant people out there calling themselves trainers who end up doing more harm than good. It is a real minefield.

One thing  a lot of people do, is continue calling and whistling as their dogs are taking off over the horizon.  The dog soon comes to view this as "keep whistling, keep calling out, and then I will know exactly where you are".  When I am training up my own dogs, I have a magic word, and that's "bye then" and by god they learn from a very early age that if they hear me say that - I mean it.  I turn away, and then I am gone, from sight and sound and they have to learn to keep their ears, eyes and nose focused on me. I never call my dogs more than 3 times, and then they get the bye then and I am off. It usually doesn't even get that far now.

As for the rest of it, I wouldn't like to offer any advice without having assessed the problem first and getting to know your boy to see what his motivation is, and without asking you a lot more questions in the process.

[Fran Griffin]

All sounds very good advice Finn :-D I bumped into one of our former clients a couple of weeks ago with his Cockerpoo (although they are coming back in the new year to join our tricks training class) complete with ball and chucker,  He said getting his dog focused on that ball was the best piece of advice he has ever had, and wonders why more people don't do it. Of course it doesn't have to be a ball, not all dogs are ball focused, but with gun dogs you can usually find something which becomes the focus of attention.  Like your trainer Finn, we work on the dogs natural instincts and abilities.  I hope your move all went well (apart from the disappearing recall for a time) and that we can get together before long, now that you aren't a million miles away from us :-D

[Fran Griffin]

Tell you what a brilliant motivators Sue. Those glo balls which you always see in Tallulah's mouth on her facebook page.  I think she only has plain and green one's left, as Tallulah has brought up all the orange ones lol

http://www.glo-balls.com/glow_in_the_dark_balls.html

[Fran Griffin]

Good one Finn. Look forward to  it :-D  Yes I know there are good trainers around Banbory, so you have moved to a good area. Perhaps you will be able to attend some of our parties in future, and perhaps even attend some of our fun dog shows, which also have sausage retrieves etc lol

[Christine Pullen]

oh that's fantastic Finn! One of mine does agility and absolutely LOVES it...he's pretty good too!! He's 2nd in the winter league at the moment (very proud mum!!) so nice to see an irish doing it...t tool hom about 2yrs to really "get" it but now he has there is no stopping him, he is a very happy boy and bounces around with exciement when it's his turn!!

[rob winemaker]

My 2 cents for what it's worth- at 20 months, could just be a good case of adolescent acting out and may improve w/ time but I practice recall with a short lead for starters, whistle and their favorite treat. Slowly the lead gets longer till its removed. Key for me has been, repeat, repeat repeat and try it in different locales. Other thing I do is when they are off lead on romp time, if they come in close or even look at me, they get all kinds of praise and hugs. They know those liver treats are always in my pocket. I am not anything close to a professional trainer but I have had lots of IS and for the most part, this has worked for me.

Best of luck and be patient.

[Georgina]

Hi, Trish Haill had similar problems with her dog and you could view her blog to see my suggestions.   It will be a case of going back to square one.   You are going to have to re-establish leadership.  When you put his food down pip on a whistle so he associates that noise with reward.  When he learns that there is something in it for him go to the next stage.  When you put the bowl down and he goes to eat, say "NO" and remove it.  Take it to another area, whistle him and when he comes  put the food down and let him eat.   Never do it more than twice.   When we walk the dogs, they look on it as hunting so if you let them get too far ahead then they are leading the hunt.   I used to change which exit I used in the house when starting off for a walk, i.e. if the dogs piled to the back door, I would go to the front door, call them and I would go out first and they would follow me and vice versa, whatever they anticipate you do the opposite and use the whistle to reward them following you.

Likewise when letting him out of the car at the walk.   Open the tailgate and use the whistle to pip him and when he jumps out and follows you reward him, again this endorses the whistle means fun.   As you begin to get him to listen to you, open the tailgate and before he piles out, tell him to stay and when you release him, use the whistle etc etc.

Likewise when on the walk, before he gets ahead change direction by pipping the whistle and when he comes, treat him.     If you keep doing this he will become unsure of where you are and keep his eye on you.   Use the technique when in the house.  If you go to sit down in the sitting room and he comes with you, pip the whistle, if he wants to come on the couch, tell him "No" and when you are ready, pip him and allow him up.  If he becomes difficult, take him out and ignore him for a while, when you want to release him, pip him and reward etc etc.   When you pip him and reward him, it is you letting him share the kill and you just have to remind him of that fact.   Always stay CALM.   Initially you will have to tell him, by that I mean use as few words as possible.  Dogs don't have conversations, they snap, bark, yelp. and you will have to copy the bark bit for now, so "come", "his name", "good" or whatever words you use.  As he becomes responsive you can then "gush" by telling him he such a good boy and clever and whatever, whatever...........  Like us all dogs need guidance and as his leader you are the one to git it to him and make him happy and secure.