Breed Standard - Wavy coats

[Lindsey Jones]

Reading the Irish Setter breed standard which states:

 

"Coat
On head, front of legs and tips of ears, short and fine; on all other parts of body and legs of moderate length, flat and as free as possible from curl or wave. Feathers on upper portion of ears long and silky; on back of fore- and hindlegs long and fine. Fair amount of hair on belly, forming a nice fringe which may extend on to chest and throat. Feet well feathered between toes. Tail to have fringe of moderately long hair decreasing in length as it approaches point. All feathering to be as straight and flat as possible".

 

it seems that a large proportion of the IS's have very wavy if not curly coats; not that I have anything against that but we seem to be getting away from the breed standard?  I understand that coat is only a small part of the important make up of these beautiful dogs and conformation is more important.

[Terry Crossman]

Dee

This is a photograph of Garryowen not just an artists impression. All please note the wave in his coat an also the white he carries. I believe he was by the important dog Ch Palmeston who also carried and produced white markings principally the forhead star that is named after him. I also found reference to him that describes the hair on his tail as having a 'curl'. I also consider that the artists impression looks more houndy than gundog and that anyone that considers this a correct type should perhaps attend a breed seminar or two.

[Dee Rance]

Was that meant at me? I think that I have been one of the few on here that have been polite to all. Trying to stop all of this nastiness, very sorry if I have offended you in any way don't recall saying that the artists impression was how dogs should actually look today just commented on its straight coat.....I actually was talking about the artists impression and was being a little sarcastic, and only mentioned the coat not the dog.... if that has offended you again very very sorry. I have attended breed seminars and do fell that I may know a little bit about setters as I have been in them for 40 years now...but perhaps you could tell me where I am going wrong, I am sure that there are others that would be very happy to put me in my place, as they have often done before...and the actual dog is lovely, curly coat and all...and as for the white...very acceptable, I actually like white on a dog...so long as it is in the correct place and on the chest is.

[Terry Crossman]

No Dee it wasn't mean't for you, i was just replying to the last post and i apolgise if you interpreted it as so. I am aware of your standing in IS. My comment was for all and  the cumulative discussion on coat type and markings. I too like the white marking and usually find myself drawn to any puppies that have white toes, chest and stars. I also didn't intend my comment to be offensive, but re-reading it i can understand that it may have been.

[Dee Rance]

OK. thanks for that....I too am drawn to the puppies with white on them unfortunately all 15 puppies that my Girl had didn't have any white on them at all, much to my dissapointment...many years ago I had one of my puppies that had the same white on him and he also had a star on his head...a lovely dark coat, that was in fact straight...my boy now has a lovely dark coat and he is straight so I am very lucky there...hard work getting a curly coat straight...but my old girl always was shown with a straight coat...as straight and free from curl as possible,,,,ah wel....

[eva ciechonska]

Dee, please don't take this the wrong way because I mean absolutely no offence but your last sentence is exactly the hub of this whole discussion.  Again, no offence but you have been there with your old girl too so you know what it is like. 

[Dee Rance]

If you read what Terry said even he thought on re reading what he had written that it could cause offence...he apologised I accepted, and that is the end of it....civel conversation commenced from that. 

What do you mean 'don't take offence'?? offence at what. I stated that Jas was always shown with as straight a coat as possible...that is what the breed standard says..so I am complying with the standard, is that not the correct thing to do??...otherwise what is the point in having a breed standard..as has already been said, would you take a straight coated Curly coated retriever into the ring and expect to win with it....no...not even if the rest of it was good, because that is against the breed standard...again why have a breed standard if you are not going to adhere to it...no offence ment...its like banging my head against a brick wall...

[eva ciechonska]

Oh Dee for heaven's sake..........I knew you would respond like this.  All I meant was that you have been in the same situation.....trying to get a coat as free as possible from wave and curl.  I meant no offence by it.  I thought that I would say that in advance just in case you took  the wrong meaning.  I was in fact trying to open up a civil conversation.....I should have known better!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Ch GARRYOWEN (Palmerston ex Belle) dob 1876 (assumed) Palmerston was born in 1866 (again assumed).  No further details of pedigree.

[Dee Rance]

Oh Dee for heaven's sake....I knew you would respond like this.......

Respond like what???...you are the only one, I think, that could intemperate that comment as anything other than what it was meant to say, a plain concise reply to what was said, absolutely nothing bad..and I have never been rood to you or anyone else in this debate...I really don't like being talked down to...and a comment like that is talking down to someone. And you actually are the only one that is NOT talking civilly to people..me included.. 

I tried to adhere to the breed standards. Do tell me Eva if this is wrong...because I am really not doing my 'job' as a breeder if it is wrong to adhere to said standards, But if you say that it is wrong then it must be!!!...I have aimed (over the vast amount of puppies that I have churned out over the past 40 years....all 3 litters of them..) to produce a puppy, that is better than their mother...and hopefully their father's and this means adhering as close as possible to the breed standards...this is where I am thinking that I am banging my head against the proverbial brick wall....how many times does it have to be said...all points of the breed standard should be aimed for, not just the bits that you want to, and forget about the ones you can't...just because your dog,,,and that is a collective 'your' has what is thought of as a fault. Doesn't mean that it should be egnored...

Example:-

People who judge....

Their dogs have an inherent fault...say bad coups....they will maybe ignore that fault in other dogs that they are judging

Another judge who has say, hare feet/flat feet will maybe ignore this when they are judging and again place dogs that have this fault.

Likewise people with curly coats will maybe ignore this because their dogs have this and put up dogs with this fault:-

Are any of thest problems typical of our breed, they shouldn't be..they are against the breed standards..but if it goes on long enough with these faults then the breed will change and that surly isn't what is wanted..

Keep the breed as it should be....the breed standard is the 'Bible' for conformation not something that you adhere to in bits as and when it suets you...

You Eva must remember my first dog Ros she was born in 1970....she was straight in the shoulder and stifle short in the neck had hare feet, that were very flat and she flew her tail, some said she was too big...(but UK standard only states that they should be well balanced, (no hight) I have never been kennel blind, there are many that are... So over the years I have improved what I breed...though I know some don't think so...but I do and I am very proud of what I have produced over the years...though ill health made it that I couldn't show or breed or judge as much as some but others that started in this 'game' have progressed more than me with all of that, but this doesn't mean that I do not know what I am talking about....(Having bread large and small animals over the years...everything from Sheep, cows horses goat etc and shown them it all come back to ''the eye'' you either have it or you don't and the breed standards for all animals should be adhered to... all of that is irrelevant but just put in to show that I do have experience)

[Tania ..danwish-irishsetters]

Oh well probably shouldn't respond but here goes . This forum has shown up a real them and us between the show people ! No one can dispute what Concept has achieved or produced . Yes we know he has a curly coat !! But don't fault pick! his good points out weigh this . My Rafferty is a grandson and he is a balanced lovely dog , Who has a wavy coat and a beautiful head. My other boy was bred by Dee , he has a straight coat and good confirmation . I wanted him as I loved his sire" Mr Jingles " for his showmanship and balanced confirmation and he is a lovely boy too , they both have achieved lovely results under the same judge sometimes . I then have 2 girls from Mr Jingles as well
To try to adhere to the breed standard when and if I breed it would be great if I could bring the good points of my dogs together , thus I would probably have more of a slight wavy coat and good balanced confirmation !
Maybe the question would be do breeders with the more wavy or curly types of coat " when breeding do you take this into consideration when looking for a sire or dam ? " but I don't think this has to be answered publicly maybe enough has already been said .

[eva ciechonska]

Tania....oh absolutely right.

In response to your last question I can only speak for myself.  If the coat is of good quality and colour of course it is considered.  If it is flat, straight, light in colour and wispy then it would most certainly not appeal.  If it is curly, dry light in colour then it wouldn't appeal either.  The coat, in all honesty, is not the overriding factor.  Health, conformation, soundness and head come before.

[eva ciechonska]

Dee, I totally agree with everything you say.  All I am stating is that you too have had a bitch who's coat was "as free as possible from wave or curl"...that is all. 

Catherine commented that we should all breed and judge to the Standard and I agreed with her.  I agree with you too I have never questioned your 40 years in the breed nor your wealth of experience. Of course I have disagreed with statements you have made just as you have disagreed with mine.  That is the nature of debate.  Nothing is black and white, nothing is perfect and no one point should be judged in isolation.  You are a judge yourself you know that very often you have to compromise and be forgiving. 

Just because you as a judge may have dogs with wavy or curly coats  or steep croups or high tail carriages does not mean you automatically put that type up.   Very often you do the opposite.  Please re-read my comments.   You cannot discard a dog just because it has waves or curls unless it fails to comply with the Standard in other respects and there is good and bad with all types of coat.  Saffy was a lovely bitch in her heyday and won regardless of her wavy coat.  This is all I am trying to say.