Norbergs angle

[ursula wilby]

I need some help from the dutch breeders on this site...I am at the moment looking at a Border Collie in Holland and am reading about hips. Although both parents have got A hips, one has got a Norbergs angle of 18 and the other one 40. Here in Sweden (the way I understand it) the Norbergs angle is all part of the deal when reading hips. I dont understand this seperate reading and I am not even certain if a higher number is worse than a lower one (I am guessing its that way round). Can anybody enlighten me?

[Melinda Auld]

It depends which scoring scheme they have been evaluated under, as each will give a slightly different score. Here is a URL to the AVA scoring - which, while the scoring will be different, explains how each score (including the Norberg angle) is measured. It's a bit technical...but if you have a basic understanding of anatomy, you should be right:

http://www.online-vets.com/HipScores/new_page_2.htm

To me, scores of 18 and 40 seems very high (the higher the score, typically the worse the joint). Others with an understanding of how Dutch scoring is done might be able to better explain.

[ursula wilby]

The bit that throws me is the fact that both dogs have got A hips. And that, to me indicates very good hips indeed. Also the A, B etc-system is applied in Sweden as well, so I am familiar with it.
Reading the information of the on-line vets. on the adress above, 18 and 40 is way of any scale. It does say dutch reading after the Norbergs angle information. Come on...we do have some dutch breeders out there!!!!!!! Henk, where are you??????

[Susan Stone]

Melinda - thanks for sharing this informative site. I was interested to read about the Pennhip scoring of joint laxity and also not surprised to find Irish Setters rank one grade worse than the infamous GSD when it comes to breed mean scores.

Ursula, sorry - can't be of any help. How I wish the method of scoring could be the same wolrdwide...

[Laura Kolbach]

I can. But only tonight. I have all my docs on the other computer.
In advance: Norberg angle has to be 105 degrees to receive an "A" as per FCI evaluation method (1-2 degrees less allowed if everything is just perfect otherwise).
I don't really understand how that angle can be 18 degrees.
And I can't imagine there can be more ways to measure a given angle :-)
But wait until the evening and I will upload photos how it is measured, etc.

[yvonne]

i am no breeder , but in Holland A hips with a Norberg angle of 40 is the best you can have , it means that the dog has deep bowls and no bone defects, i hope you understand and that he or she has perfect hips , you can get A with a norberg of 18 , if there is no artroses , and everything is in place but not deep enough then you still can get A , because there are no bone defects , the more defects they find the lower the grading, my first gordon had HD with a norbergangle 36 , which is very good , but his bone defects where graded 3 and that is where he got the D score for , artroses in a bad way.it is hard for me to explain this in english

[ursula wilby]

This is just getting more confusing...so now 40 is the best and 18 is not all that good, yet they both end up with A hips. Is there in fact any need for me to actually bother about Norbergs angle or shuld I just accept an A for an A?
And yes Yvonne, I understand what you mean, here in Sweden Norbergs angle is part of the deal, yet we never get to know the angles seperatly. So for all I know my A setters could be a "not-so-good" 18.
Yet all this make absolutly no sense when it is combined with Lauras information regarding an angle of 105 for an A as per FCI-evaluation.
I have never been good at maths, but I can see no way that 40 can be translated in to 105.

[Laura Kolbach]

Yvonne, can you find some document how you measure it?

me myself can't find my file of course. still searching for it though.
for Ursula: "The Norberg Angle radiographic method of determining joint laxity (subluxation) has been used more in Europe than in the United States. Norberg angles typically range from 55 degrees to 115 degrees, with the smaller numbers representing looser hips."

[ursula wilby]

I do think we need the input from dutch breeders/owners here.
And how can the dutch reading be so totally differant from anything else?

HENK!!!!!!!! Where are you when you are needed????????????????

[ursula wilby]

Seeing that Henk chose to keep a low profile on this one, I have found out through some dutch collie-breeders.

According to them, 40 is the very best you can have and the average when you are talking about A hips is about 30.
If you go very low on the Norberg angle, you no longer have A hips...

Interesting that most of us had the wrong idea for the dutch messuring and also the wrong end of the stick when it comes to what is better...high or low. I wonder if this is just in Holland and have come to the conclusion that I shall just ignore it all and just look at A or B.

[Susan Stone]

Sorry, I still don't get it. What is the 40? Definitely not the Norberg angle...

You could still clarify it for the rest of us by enquiring at the Raad van Beheer (the dutch Kennel Club). Thanks Ursula! :-))

[ursula wilby]

Thanks a lot Susan...I just may have a moment to spare, inbetween bathing of puppies and trying to straighten this place out after the invasion of 10 very lovley (but active) little monsters. Ines has taken a few days off...typical...:-)
But I will see what I can do.

Although I feel that Henk is not pulling his weight at all here..!!!!!:-)

[ursula wilby]

Susan, I have written to the dutch kennelclub...