Should the occurance of HD be recorded on the same register as hip scores?

[Rhonda Fisher]

If hip scoring is an aid to prevent HD should HD occurance be recorded as the base platform. It is the primary condition that is being tested for.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The only way this could happen , would be if vets were required to report ALL  HD in KC registered dogs  whether in hip scored dogs or dogs who have simply been X rayed and diagnosed , to the KC as a matter of course. If an owner wants to dispute a diagnosis, then it would be up to them to submit an X ray done after 12 months to the BVA panel for scoring. My guess is this would greatly increase the proportion of dogs known to have HD, could  treble or quadruple the numbers in some breeds

[Rhonda Fisher]

It may expose that the HD problem is bigger than the current system is recording. If HD is the condition that is being targeted, perhaps this information is a necessity to be able to breed for a lessening of the condition. The numbers may be trebled or quadrupled but I think we have to remember that these are dogs not just numbers. The amount of pain, heartbreak, time and money that goes into a HD dog for its life seems to be vast. If the current system is not picking up the true level of the actual condition that is being tested for, it could be argued that the system is flawed. Can a breed be praised for good work in hip scoring if  it does not address the crux of the problem fully?

[Susan Stone]

Actually it may come as a surprise to some to hear that hip scoring prior to breeding is not mandatory in the UK. There are still breeders out there who do not have their dogs scored.

[Dawn Riddell]

Only by scoring every single Irish Setter in the world, would we know the true state of the breed in terms of hips. However we all know that isn't going to happen, for many reasons. So breeders use this useful tool to make educated decisions about minimising known risks. Also, perhaps I'm being thick.............it has been known, but it's my understanding that only dogs with 0/0 hips score can be regarded as free from hip dysplasia. Therefor the vast majority of dogs have some degree of dysplasia.

So for this reason I'm always more interested in the Breed Median Score rather than the Breed Mean Score

 

Or have I got this all wrong?

 

dAWN r.

 

[Rhonda Fisher]

If the hip scoring is to be seen as an indication of the degree of hip dysplasia Dawn would it not be logical for the extremes of hip scoring be on the same system. Are median scores acurate if they are not there? HD extreme cases where hip scoring was not possible should be there as these indicate the worse case of what you are actually testing.

Small steps. Not suggesting we score every single Irish Setter in the world, just recording all that are done in a place where it can be used by everyone in the breed.

[Dawn Riddell]

The thing with HD is that it's so variable. Some dogs with very high scores apparently display very little in the way of symptoms. If we are to accept a Veterinary opinion of what might be a case of Hip Dysplasia without X Rays and an official score, then surely that would muddy the waters even more. Who's to say that the scores of these dogs would neccessarily be that high. They might be, but some may not. We just can't know.

Median scores are what they are, a record of the most commonly occurring score. So it's seen as a scientific prediction of the hip status of the breed as a whole. So the more dogs that are scored, the more accurate that prediction can be.

I haven't looked to see your location, but in the UK the Kennel Club records BVA/KC hip score results in it's database, and they are in the public domain. Anyone can check the hip status of the parents of a puppy they might be interested in.

I think we need to be thinking of ways of promoting the importance of hip scoring, elbow scoring, eye testing and DNA testing, among the general public. After all they are the consumer of this 'product'. I wonder how many non show people look at the health test results on the KC website when searching for a breeder and a puppy.

Dawn R.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I wonder how many pet owners or buyers would have any idea how to use the KC website or breed club websites  to find test results, or even know what tests are done for the breed they are interested in?

[Dawn Riddell]

Exactly Margaret, that's a big part of the problem. There isn't enough consumer pressure.

Dawn R.

[Rhonda Fisher]

If a dog is diagonosed with HD would not x rays be taken to confirm this? I guess to find out if they are high or not they need to be scored and included. Owners are probably faced with priorities for surgery etc and may not want to spend the money on scoring. These unscored dogs would then needed to be recorded as HD only. It is not as good as having the score but who would pay. If hip scoring is the indicator being used to control HD then dogs that have HD should be on the record first and then record those dogs that are less affected.

If not all results are going on the record then using the current median score is not really scientifically predicting the hip status of the breed.  To have a more accurate prediction all hips that are scored and HD affected (scored but who would pay) should be on the record then the median taken. If only the nice ones are going on it is an inaccurate median score. It is great that these are in the public domain and the ruling is must be older than 12 months. The AVA/ANKC as far as I can find have printed a policy saying this should be done but it has not actually happened. Correct me if I am wrong Aussies.

Ist Irish Setter did not know about hip scoring or most other things. The more a person gets into a breed (not just show people) the more you find out. In the pages where the general public find out about how to buy a puppy it would be as simple as a hyperlink. It does need promotion as a positive way breeders are helping the breed. It need promotion to all breeders. 2nd dog will be much more interested in all the information that can be used from all sources.   

[Bridget Simpson]

Well this is one of those rare occasions when we in SA seem to be a step ahead of our UK counterparts. Those X-raying their Setters for Hip/Elbow Dysplasia under the Kennel Union of Southern Africa/SA Veterinary Assoc/FCI Scheme are required to sign the declaration on the Application Form (attached as a file to this communication) before the X-rays are taken by the Radiographer/Veterinarian.  As can be seen under 5. the owner agrees that the results, after scoring by the expert panel of Scrutineers at Onderstepoort Veterinary Academic Hospital using the International FCI scoring system, will be forwarded to 'the relevant breed society'.  Thus, in the case of KUSA members, the Governing Body is automatically advised and the information appears on its data base to update its Health Screening status.

While there are those Setter owners/breeders that do not enter the scheme, the majority X-ray prior to breeding and acquire an updated Health Screening Certificate (an Annexure to the Certificated Pedigree and Registration Certificate).  When applying for KUSA Registration of a litter from parentage Health Screening Certificates can be requested and issued to each pup in the litter. To illustrate I add a file attachment which indicates not only the status of the pup regarding DNA testing, but also full details of the results of parentage, thus the puppy's purchaser has full knowledge of the situation. Knowing that HD is fickle as far as mode of inheritance is concerned, we protect ourselves by indicating in our Agreement of Sale/Purchase that we cannot guarantee total freedom from HD.

Working with a relatively small genetic pool of Irish, compared to UK and Europe, it has and is vital to keep X-raying every generation for Hip Dysplasia in order to make the best possible match prior to mating the individuals and in so doing aim to keep these partnerships above C2 which is interpreted as 'Mild to moderate dysplasia'.  I believe that FCI affiliated countries in Europe do not permit Breed Registration of a litter from parentage below that level (perhaps one of our European contributors could verify this information).

The KUSA/Breeders Restriction document signed by the Purchaser of any pup bred by me also indicates that in the event that the owner wishes to breed at a later stage the dog/bitch must be X-rayed for HD or I will not lift the restriction in which case the litter cannot be Breed Registered with KUSA. 

Elbow X-raying is a relatively new field of X-raying for SA Setters, but to date the reported scores are 0:0 

Until there is a DNA test for HD the above is the best any breeder can do. I doubt that such a test is going to be available in what is left of my career, nevertheless, I hope to leave the next generation of SA breeders in a strong position for a successful outcome when such a test does become available.

Hopefully the above offers readers some ideas about how breeders could handle this worldwide problem.

   

 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

 

      

 

[Ann Millington]

I think people have become a bit more savvy these days regarding hip scoring.  When I had my IRWS scored in the 1980s

a) It was nowhere near so expensive as it is today - it was £25!

b) There was no option from my vet to sending the x-rays for scoring - the suggestion of not sending was frowned upon - once you had booked your dog in for hip scoring it went all the way to publication in the Breed Records Supplement.  Also you could keep the x-ray plates if you wanted them - I did.

c) Even today, once the plates are sent for scoring, the results whatever they are, are published and the score put on registration documents.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that some folks (not all) review their x-rays and if they are 'not too good' direct the vet not to send them in and keep the information to themselves.  I guess they still pay a whack because the most part of the cost of hip scoring is made up of consultation fees, anesthetic - or non-use of anesthetic - the actual x-ray (and anything else the vet recommends at the time) - the actual cost of the BVA panel scoring is relatively small - so I believe.

Looking at our records, most breeding stock (not all, tho') are hip scored, but not so many dogs that are not intended to be shown.

Given the expense, it's not so surprising - but very frustrating for record-keeping!

We certainly need a designated police force to regularly visit every dog owner to check that they are doing what they are told!! (That's a joke folks ;o]))

[Bridget Simpson]

please refer to the following attachments

1. KUSA Health Screening Certificate

2. KUSA/SAVA/FCI  Application form for Hip & Elbow Dysplasia Scheme Certification