Outcross Programm

[Rachel]

I have an IRWS pup, (registered with the Irish Kennel Club)

The dutch "Raad van Beheer" won't issue a pedigree because our dog is from an

outcross programm.

Is this correct?

 

 

 

[Ann Millington]

I reluctantly prolong this debate, but a few points need clarifying here - asking questions and putting another point of view should not be seen as 'criticising and sniping'

Margaret does not have full knowledge about the IRWSCGB, nor the general consensus of opinion of UK IRWS owners, so let's get it right.

1) The Irish Red & White Setter Club of Great Britain has been concerned with the genetic health of IRWS for 30 years.

2) Outcrossing (using as unrelated dogs as possible within the breed) has always been encouraged even when line-breeding was believed to be the only way to produced consistantly good dogs.

3) Crossbreeding (using another breed) could well become the  last resort to save the breed if breeding practices produced some identifiable issue that could not be dealt with otherwise.

4)The GB Club researched this option in 2008 with a breed survey into Inbreeding and a discussion paper at the 2009 Conference.

5) The findings were that, in the UK IRWS population, there is not an identifiable issue at this time.

6) Information and help was offered to the Irish Outcross Programme 2011 - but it was rejected.

7) There is concern that the Irish Outcross Programme 2011 does not include PRA clearance in the Irish Setter element, nor address the other inherited conditions in both breeds.

8) There has never been a doubt that the IKC would identify the crossbreds, but the GB Club needed to point out to the KC that a first generation (red) crossbred dogs registered as an IRWS by the IKC with a X at the end of its registration number, would not be easily identified here and that provision should be made for this and future generations. How many puppy-buyers would recognise that  breeding from  an 'IRWS' with an x or * at the end of its registration number.would probably produce puppies unacceptable as IRWS or Irish Setters?  It is up to the KC and Breed Club to make this clear - hence the meeting arranged in 2011 and taking place at the beginning of 2012.

9) The IRWSCGB attitude to the Irish crossbreeding programme has not changed, it still seen as not necessary at this time and that it will bring with it disadvantages as well as advantages, but at least by facilitating the imports, it will be able to monitor their progress.

Regarding the IRWS Rescue.... I fear Margaret has got it wrong again - The comcern is that the IRWSCGB Rescue Scheme is already taking in and rehoming very many  more abandonned IRWS from Ireland than they handle from the UK and debate whether it can financially and practically cope with an influx of unwanted crossbreds from Ireland too.

Shall we look at both sides of the discussions?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"There is concern that the Irish Outcross Programme 2011 does not include PRA clearance in the Irish Setter element, nor address the other inherited conditions in both breeds."

 

All dogs used in the outcross programme have to be CLAD clear and hip scored. The IRWS also have to be VWD clear. The puppy I have imported is CLAD, VWD and PRA clear , both his parents are hip scored with good hips, he will be hip scored and BVA eye tested when he is old enough. There is no history of bloat, epilepsy, MO or any other known inherited condition behind him. What more do you want in the way in the way of testing?
The outcross programme is being done for health and genetic reasons. Do you seriously think the outcross committee would approve any mating between two dogs which carried any known genetic risks?
I would suggest you have rather more to worry about in the existing IRWS population, where you have breeders in the UK doing matings with known   genetic risks, the rationalisation  being that there is little choice when it comes to breeding - and breeding to win in the show ring is high priority.

Help and information offered to the IKC which was rejected? Pure fiction. The IRWSCGB wrote a very brief letter to the IKC simply saying the outcross was unnecessary

And a further conversation with the KC today over the registration of imported outcross dogs confirmed what I have already said, the KC agreed two years ago they would accept the import of outcross IRWS as long as the documentation showed the dogs were from the outcross programme. The system of recording outcross dogs by the KC was already in place - there have been a few other cases of imported outcrossed dogs, and that is what has been used. Nothing to do with intervention by the GB club. More fiction
Get used to it , Ann. The KC has moved on, outcrossing to widen the gene pool for small and vulnerable breeds is part of the strategy for healthy survival  of those breeds, not waiting until there is some problem so serious that the breed faces disaster. Together with importing new and less related dogs, and breeding more diversely within the existing gene pool.

[Ann Millington]

Oh Margaret, it is not all about your import.!!

Yours is not the only crossbred expected to be imported, nor are all going to be part of the Irish scheme - for that matter the Irish Programme does not require the Irish setter parent to be DNA tested clear of PRA according to the latest information on the IKC website.

It is a great pity that you do not appear to have any understanding or empathy with the efforts of the UK IRWS Breed Club on behalf of IRWS - which are no more 'bred to win in the show ring' than yours are.

 

"Help and information offered to the IKC which was rejected? Pure fiction. The IRWSCGB wrote a very brief letter to the IKC simply saying that the outcross was unnecessary"?????

The IKC share all their correspondence with you, do they?

[Susan Stone]

The person who knows a lot about IRWS and the outcross programme is Margaret Sierakowski. I will ask her to get in touch.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

There shouldn't be a problem with the Dutch Kennel Club . The litter are registered with the Irish Kennel Club (FCI) so I would think the Dutch KC have to accept the puppies under their reciprocal agreement. The puppies from the outcross who went to Finland and the UK have been registered there with no problems . If you do have a problem, I would avoid getting into any arguments  with the Dutch KC, just go to the IKC and ask them to sort it out directly with the Dutch KC (or the FCI as a last resort). The papers from the IKC should be recognised in all FCI countries

[Ossian]

 Since Mrs Millington has "reluctantly prolonged the debate" I dont suppose there is any harm in another two penny hapworth!

It amazes me when members of a club do this and unfortunately it is not the first time this particular memeber has chosen to represent the club as if their own opinion were the mutual feeling and direction of the WHOLE club. We have found to our cost in the past tha this has bee the case. We have also found that the busines of the committee - something that is not for circulation unless expressly directed by the Chair - is bandied around on public forums. This has got to stop.

 

As such I will merely state that much of the preceding mail from Mrs Millington should be disregarded as either an untruth, a blatant skewing of the truth or the truth which should not be in the public domain.

 

This topic was prefaced by a puppy owner looking for verification of the way forward in registering a "first cross" outcross puppy in her own country. This information has now been put forward and any subsequent misrepresentation from a member of the GB c,ub will result in a very strong letter of complaint regarding continued "leakage" of club business forked with personal opinioms. I hope this is quite clear.

[Ann Millington]

Evie,

I wrote, "Shall we look at both sides of the dicussion?" - having answered Rachel's question and received an ongoing response from Margaret.

 

The contents of my last mail are facts that are in the public domain - which, if you were a member of the IRWSCGB, you would be aware.

The Club is not a secret society, this I know as I have had IRWS from 1980, been a Committee Member since 1981, served for 25 years, published the Newsletter for 10 years, currently serve on 3 sub-committees, am the KC Breed Health Coordinator for IRWS and am a Vice President of the Club.  I don't think it can be said that I don't have the breed at heart.

Who do you represent?

Do you really think that only one side of a discussion should be heard?  This is a Discussion Forum, isn't it?

[Ossian]

Mrs Millington

why is it that whenever someone in "dogs" is challenged - in this case about committee business being discussed ad nauseum on open forums - the person being challenged immediately resorts to a curriculum vitae of their long service in a breed? "I have had IRWS from 1980" would suggest 33 years living with the breed.

Yet in my twelve year involvement I dont remeber you having a red and white of your own. Being all of the things you cite above is only  being a committee member . . . . . . .

 

Ten minutes or ten years does not excuse trumpeting one's own opinions as club directions and business discussions. It is this kind of cavalier approach to discretion at committee level that has ensured clubs - and I choose carefully to refer to ALL clubs here not just canine societies - are struggling to find and retain willing volunteers to take committee positions. (You yourself admit to FIVE positions in one club) So often these days club business is being bandied across social media sites. Issues of all kinds which may be helpful if raised in a sensitive and discreet fashion are much more likely not to be discussed or actively hidden from view becase members fear being openly "named and shamed"

(words I saw recently in a red and white discussion)

 

As I said, I have now given you fair notice Mrs Millingotn. For several years now I have read and been horrified by opinions and comments which you claim are the "culb's view". If you are official spokesperson for ALL business of the club then you should be designated as such at each AGM. If however, as I suspect, you are not the IRWS Club GB official spokesperson then, should I chance upon this or any other subject being discussed with inference to club business I will not hesitate to register my complaint with the Chair and senior                     committee of the club.

[Ann Millington]

Evie, get over yourself.

[Ossian]

 :>)

interesting reaction. I must have touched a nerve.

 

Silly comments like the one above are a dead give away 

[Ann Millington]

No, Evie, I just think you are being ridiculous.

If anyone doubts my credentials, I advise them to consult the President of the IRWSCGB, Mrs P Perriam and the Acting Chairman of the General Committee, Mrs S Walton - contacts on the IRWSCGB website  www.irishredandwhitesetterclub.co.uk  Click on 'Committee' on the menu on the lefthand side.