The forum

[ursula wilby]

I have just started a new discussion on the forum regarding electric collars.

As I dont know the members of this group, (and you may not have followed the previous discussions) I would just like to explain a few things about myself. My main interest in dogs is actually obediance-training. I have so far made up three Ob. Champions in a row in Irish setters. (FCI-rules).
I have also written a book on obediance up to champion level, and write for amongst others the swedish kennel club. I feel VERY strongly that dogs (and especially Irish setters) can be trained with far "nicer" methods than are sometimes used to-day. I have never once even used a choker-chain on my dogs during all their training and all my training is done through reward only.
I am also convinced that I could teach my dogs just about anything and that there is no limit to the trainability of our dogs, if we go about training the right way.
I am very much against a lot of things we do to our dogs (and cats). Boredom being one...how many dogs spend their lives doing absolutly nothing?
I also can not see that debarking and declawing should ever be allowed.
So lets see...do I fit in to this group?

[Paul-Leo Paquin]

You sure do, however, coments on how obedince training is related to the behavior is what is looked for here. I realize that training a dog can teach a dog to behave a certin way (look at dogs trained to sniff out drugs ect.) and many other areas. I fact I've read quite a few books written by trainers like your self wherein I've learned many behavior traitts. So, please do join us
PLP

[ursula wilby]

All training is working from and with the dogs behavior-pattern. Is it not?
You are just trying to find the right pattern to fit in with your command. All dogs can sit, jump, walk and run...its just a matter of finding the right button to push. And motivating the dog of course. That is the MAJOR problem. Like what would you like to discuss here?
Any ideas?
We sort of need to get this group to lift a little Paul-Leo (Do you call yourself Paul-Leo? Or will either one do?)

[ursula wilby]

I too think the learning process is the most interesting Fran! As far as I am concerned the competing is just a by-product. Like getting a confirmation that everything worked out as planned. I also only train with positive enforcement but without clicker. I have seen too many dogs that work amazingly well when the clicker is used but then drop once the clicker goes.
And after all, it can not be used when competing.
I have done just about everything training-wise with setters but no agility...its just never apealed to me. Perhaps I am too old..? All that running!

[Susan Stone]

I'd really like to join this group if you will accept me?

I have a history of dog training since I was 9 years old - and I'm now 41 and still learning new things every day!!! I am fascinated by the way dogs (or generally all living creatures) learn and am training my young dog Glen trying to follow basic behaviour rules & learning theory. All learning must come from the dog's own motivation and the tricky thing is finding the way for him to really want to do & learn what I do!
I am stunned by the enormous potential he is now showing, coming up to 2 years of age. Having bred him myself and socialized the pups according to the most up to date methods (David Appleby, Esther Schalke, Barbara Schöning) I am truly impressed by what it is possible to achieve.
I train my dogs for search & rescue (competition only), obedience and also field work. I also work with the clicker but not only and have no difficulty not clickering if necessary. But I have found the Clicker an immense help to catch a certain behavious or eye contact at a distance and also having someone else click for me when I am working with my dog, telling us that we are both doing well and deserve a treat!

I'm looking forward to further discussions and possibly help when it comes to retrieving a dead duck....

[ursula wilby]

I honestly feel that you can teach a dog ANYTHING...(once you do the basics correctly). As for retrieving, I have had great problems with all but two of my setters. But then a huge section of my obedience book is about retrieving.
If you have never had a problem with it, you dont learn anything. That is why most books (were authors use retrieving-happy breeds) only have like three lines about it...open mouth, place dummy in mouth ...say good dog.
But there are plenty of dogs that have problems.
And my setters particually so I feel.
My german shephards and poodle just went and got whatever I would throw.
So does the french bulldog...
But the setters...that takes a bit more work.
At least for me!

[Susan Stone]

Good to hear this impression confirmed by the expert! But we are getting there - dummies, dumb bells (what a silly name!), his dinner bowl, my mobile phone... you name it - he will retrieve it - but he still says NO to that stinkin' bird (not that I really blame him). His mother Erin is good at making him jealous though and I think he is getting frustrated that she gets all the treats... is that meen?

Maybe we should really transfer this thread to the main section...

[ursula wilby]

Shall we move this Susan?
I think so!
There will be plenty of field-people with a view on retrieving cold game.

But for now... yes, making him jealous is a good one.
I would go about it like this:
Throw the bird...allow ONLY Erin to retrieve.
Keep Glen on line.
Repeat, repeat, repeat...
After a few days of this, and when you see Glen is REALY wanting to go...let him (and keep Erin on the line).
Keep your fingers crossed!
You have come so far seeing that he retrieves just about anything else, so this actually is no problem.
It just takes a bit of time.
I have also had problems with the metal-dummy (any retrieving actually) with the latest Ob. Ch.
I put down the metal-dummy and served her food.
My dogs will wait until told to eat, so she was told to retrieve although she had the food in front of her.
So (nasty me) no food for two meals. After that she retrieved the metal and THEN got the food.
We then advanced to outdoors.
She (Ettan) loves gazing at my chickens...better than TV etc. She can lay in front of the chickenrun for hours and just stare...so she first had to retrieve and then got to look at the chickens.
Fair payment I thought.
Carried on to FIRST retrieve, then swim in the sea...just to get other places in. Its otherwise easy to end up with a dog that only responds in one place...
Anything worth trying?

[Paul-Leo Paquin]

I have tried the Electric Collars in the past and I still don't care to use them. I Personally think that it is not the right way to train a dog. If you look at the way canines are trained in nature, you will see that shock treatment is not used, rather, the alpha dog will disapline the ofender on the spot and then it's over. The ofender gets the message and all is well with in the pack.
In my own experience I've found that using the same methodes as those used within the pack brings greater results in training a dog in obedience, in the home or in the field.
Of late I've been working with two dogs that had been bounced from one owner to another various times and this caused the dogs to be reluctent to bond with new invarirements and humans. By slowly allowing the dogs to adjust on their own and allow themselves to be loved and cared for, they now are very loyal and are much eiseier to teach new skills within their ability.
PLP

[ursula wilby]

I wonder if you have checked out the discussion in the Forum called "Training methods?" If not, read the comments on that one Paul-Leo!
Your comment above would have been great to read there as well!
Its all about electric collars and there are some very interesting comments...both for and against!

Ursula

[Paul-Leo Paquin]

Thanks Ursula for your coment, I try not to get on too many Forums as some of them can be a bit disturbing and I've had a tendency in the past to respond a bit sharply and this may at times hurt someones fellings.
However, your post isn not one of them nor is your subject.
Paul-Leo

[ursula wilby]

Well Paul-Leo, you dont actually have to reply...but its still worth reading the thread "Training methods"!
As for responding sharply and (perhaps) hurting peoples feelings...I may be one of those too! :-)
Doing the "responding sharply"-bit!