Basic instincts?

[ursula wilby]

Here is a question/story not for the faint hearted first-time-breeder.

Back in the 90s I had a bitch (bred by me) co-owned with a friend. A lovley dog, competed in obediance and very normal in her behaviour. A well behaved and pleasant dog in every way. I mated her and was going to bring her home to my place when it was getting close to her time. She knew my own bitches well and felt very much at home here. In fact she felt very much at home anywhere. So we are not talking about an insecure dog.

55 days in to her pregnancy I was woken up by a phonecall.
She had started to have her puppies. Way too early of course. I rushed over to my friends place and it was an all night welping. The bitch seemed fine and 12 tiny puppies were born.
5 of them alive.
The mother looked after them brilliantly and also had plenty of milk. Needless to say the puppies were very weak and the weight was just around 100g.
Some under - some over.

We tooke her to my place (me driving with the puppies stuffed under my jumper to keep them warm) and of course no safteybelt...
Well the mother was settled down in her welpingbox and she was also very happy to see my own bitches, so no problem there. Of course she was in a room of her own as not to be disturbed.
The puppies had problems sucking and you could see that some were not doing so well. When you have had a number of litters you sort of get a feel for which puppy is falling behind. No need to weigh them to know.
It started out with one male.
He was not quite on the same level as the others...
Next time I looked, he was gone.
I turned everything upside down looking for him. (It is important to note that the bitch was not under any stress, as far as I could make out.)
She cared for her remaining puppies like any devoted mother.
Then there was another one falling behind and not being able to suck as well as his littermates.
Yes, I saw it and kept an even closer look when it came to this one.
Next thing I knew, he was gone as well.
I started to panic.

She was actually eating her puppies!

Our own instict tells us that there is something wrong mentally with a dog that will eat its own offspring.
And that was what the first dog-behaviour"expert" I contacted told me.
But then, there was something not right with the thought of just dismissing the dog as "disturbed". And that was the fact that she EVERY time picked out the ones that were about to fade away anyhow. So there was definatly no random killing taking place.
Eventually only one puppy (the strongest from the start) remained.
I was somehow just waiting for that one to go as well...but no, this one was actually the only one that was big and strong enough from the start.
The others were not strong enough to live, I knew that from the beginning.
But then in a situation like that, you still try (and hope).

At the time I spoke to many dog-behaviour-people about this and finally reached the conclusion that the mother was not disturbed, she was in fact just acting correctly and following her instincts.
The one remaining puppy grew fat and round and was a total pain to wean, the mother just never got tired of her...
The litter was supposed to be called after Elton John songtitles.
So this one and only survivour from a litter of 12 ended up with the name: Röde Baronens I'm still standing.
I thought it was a fitting name for her...

This may not be the type of experiance that breeders would normally want to own up to, but I have been at this for long enough to be able to write even about the "non-pleasant" sides of breeding (or dogs in general).

So if anyone out there comes across anyting like this...dont blame the dog, think before you condem.

[Susan Stone]

Thanks for sharing Ursula. I read your sentence 'our own feelings tell us there is something mentally wrong with a dog that eats its own offspring' and felt this was not you speaking. Reading on I realized this was the first reaction of shock and horror, and later on, after learning more about normal /abnormal behaviour, you were able to accept what happened.

It must have been a dreadful experience to go through. But it shows us that our dogs are still mainly guided by nature, never mind how much we try to project our human feelings and values.

I am sure all of us have experienced one or more puppies not surviving and know how sad this is.
But I read that around 10% or more do not survive the stress of birth and another 10% of all newborn puppies' organismes can not adapt from life in the womb to living and breathing in the outside world. Knowing this made it easier for me to accept it as part of nature. Of course I make sure the bitch and puppies have everything they need - don't think I'm leaving them to their fate!
After trying to keep a weak and backward puppy alive for 14 days after birth and then having to realize that it would have been kinder to let it go after 3 days, I have now decided to give a weak puppy a chance of 2-3 days and if it is not suckling strongly by then, to have it euthanized. In the wild this puppy would die and the mother would eat it to keep the nest clean.

I have not experienced any thing like you mention, but a breeder acquaintance with labradors once had two litters born within a few days. The breeder left both dams and pups in the same room, knowing they always got on well together. She returned to find that one bitch had killed the other bitch's puppies... she was furious with the bitch and considered her behaviour abnormal. But actually the only one to blame for this tragic accident was herself.

[ursula wilby]

Susan, I have of course had puppies die previously to this litter. The thing here (and the one that was so horrific) was that the mother took them BEFORE they were dead.
She made no mistake as to which one to take, but it was the "swallowing alive" that got me. (For the nasty detail: She swollowed them alive, no sign of blood or anything.) And yes it was not an experiance I would ever like to repeat. But it can be good to know that this can happen...and that even "experts" on dog behaviour can get things seriously wrong.

As for the labrador you mentioned, THAT is a totally different matter (and one I have heard from close friends as well) but also instinct. And 100% the breeders fault!
Also I have heard of bitches killing their own offspring, but they never had any maternal feelings in the first place, and that, once again is a differant matter. These bitches (rottweilers) had to wear muzzles at all time and be closley supervised.
Yet these puppies in their turn grew up to be "normal" mothers, amazingly enough.

The setter-mother cared for her offspring and looked after and fed, until she realised there was no point (I realised too, but was still hoping).

And no, I do not keep puppies alive.
I want them to be able to feed themselves and show that they can cope with life.
Also I would forever blame myself if I was to sell a puppy that I had "kept alive" and it then turned out to have something wrong with it.

Needless to say I never mated that bitch again.

[Dušan Rauški]

Hello ladies
It is very interesting story.
But ok we already know that is in the nature of the dogs, I don’t understand Ursula why you didn’t mated that bitch again?
Probably the most interesting part to me is that you both agree not to keep weak puppies alive! I understand your reasons completely – but I guess I didn’t expect to hear that.

Four years ago my oldest bitch started to whelp on the 55-th day of her pregnancy.
Whole day passed by and there were no puppies in sight. I kept measuring temperature every hour until the morning of the 56-th day when temperature went up to about normal 38 degrees and still growing which was the sign that something is wrong.
…so I took her to the vet. He examined her and said that she is empty – she was certainly already whelped and because it was so early and pups underdeveloped she ate them!!!
Needless to say I was totally confused. There was no way that she had puppies whelped and that I didn’t saw it. But the good doctor was very persuasive and we went home somewhat embarrassed.
Whole day and through the night bitch was having temperature about 38.5, shivering, and that dark liquid was still dripping from her, so next day I took her again to the vet.
I told him I still can feel something inside her by touch and she really isn’t well. He convinced me that it is either kidney I could fell or colon contents, gave her antibiotics and oxitocin (contrary to my protests) and sent us home once again.
On the third day of drama after I woke up I found one dead pup lying next to bitch!
Quickly took her to the car and went to the vet (which recommended a friend of mine). Young lady listened what I had to say and quickly prepared cesarean cut. She found inside the bitch three more dead pups (quite large) and one tiny small girl which was still alive.

That puppy was so loud and restless but didn’t suckle at all. I had to take some milk from the bitch with the medicine dropper and to feed the pup every two hours, day and night.
After feeding I had to stimulate the pup’s stomach because the bitch was still very weak from operation, and of course to keep her dry and clean. That continued for several days, until one day puppy died; It was about 2 o clock in the morning and I was awaken by the pup’s cry so I took her in my hand when unexpectedly pup shrieked very loud and became totally stiff, rigid like a plastic toy! Now that is very unpleasant experience especially when it happens in 2h in the morning – trust me! (Later I found out it was probably dying cramp btw.)

Considering this experience and your belief, it really got me thinking – should we interfere in cases like these?

[ursula wilby]

The reason I dont start a huge rescue operation is that i feel that the puppy should be strong enough from the beginning to cope with life. I feel that if I interfere too much, I may end up keeping something alive that nature did not intend to live. That is well enough if I plan on keeping the puppy myself, but I never keep more than one out of each litter and choosing for future breeding purposes I would certainly NOT choose one that had needed me to stay alive at the beginning.
So, that puppy would then be sold to some family that PERHAPS ended up with a puppy that would be ill for a large proportion of its lifetime.
I myself have bought dogs that have died at an early age (no setters) and I know how heartbreaking this is. If anything was to happen to the sold puppy I would forever blame myself.

I do want to feel I have done everything possible for all of my puppies to grow into strong and healthy dogs. This includes hip-scores and every other aspect of illness you can think of. I want every puppy to have the best possible start in life that I can possibly offer. So I will rather cull a doubtful puppy than let it live and pass the pain on to some poor puppy-buyer.

The reason I never mated the bitch mentioned above is the fact that she gave birth on the 55th day. I feel that (looking back at my bitches and the duration of pregnancy) this tends to be almost constant and only vary very little in each individual bitch. (If the litters are more or less the same size)
I feel that puppies born that early do not have as good a start in life as they deserve.
And risking another experiance like that was nothing I looked forward too.

There was another aspect as well.
I had quite a few bookings for that litter.
So I had to phone them one after one to tell them that the puppy they had booked (and that had been born) was now dead. (No, I never told them they got eaten...)
These were familys that had waited and waited and that had gone to visit the bitch and counted each day.

As for your experiance Dusan, it sounds like another nightmare!
Breeding dogs is not ONLY pretty puppies...and happy-ever-after-stories.
Unfortunatly.

[Susan Stone]

What a very sad experience, Dusan. I don't suppose you ever went back to that first vet again! It is only human that you try to save the one surviving puppy, I would do the same.

My aim is similar to Ursula's, although maybe not quite so radical. A new born puppy can be weakened by a difficult birth but be perfectly healthy otherwise and may thrive on a little help. These puppies should recover within 24 - 48 hours and during that time I am more than willing to give them a chance of survival.
Those puppies with serious problems (for example brain damage through lack of oxygen at birth) will not recover but need permanent help to keep them alive. That is what I tell myself NOT to do! I feel it is kinder to have these puppies put to sleep.

I'd just like to mention one frequent misunderstanding when it comes to the expected length of a pregnancy. We tend to count 63 days from the day of mating. The 63 day rule is misleading, as it is the day of ovulation that determines the length of pregnancy, not the day of the mating. A successful mating can take place from a few days before the bitch ovulates up to a few days after (sorry, I can't remember the maximum either side). The bitch will give birth 63 days after ovulation took place, so only if you can define the day of ovulation can you be sure of the day your bitch will have her puppies.

If a bitch has had a difficult time giving birth I would - like Ursula - consider seriously if she should be mated again. I'd save myself the worry and also I could possibly avoid the bitch passing on these problems to her progeny.

[ursula wilby]

Nowadays I always use a bloodsample before mating.
And as I understand this is pretty accurate and gives you the absolutly best day to mate. So that should make counting pretty accurate.

[Dušan Rauški]

sorry for double posting something wasn't working properly and now dont know how to erase it!

[Dušan Rauški]

Naturally I stick to the lady who did operation (until she moved away). I don’t know about you but I’m really having troubles finding good vet here, but that’s another story – never ending as it seems.

Another thing caught my eye: it’s what Ursula said that the duration of the pregnancy tends to be more-less constant in the bitch. I don’t think I ever heard that one before. Is that only your own feeling according to your experience, or some rule?

[ursula wilby]

Dusan, about the duration of pregnancy.
I am basing this on personal experiance. Normally my bitches have three litters each. I have found that they normally tend to have fairly similar type of pregnancies and also birth-weights of the puppies.
Unless of course there is a marked differance in number of puppies born.
But normally also that has been fairly consistant.
I am even assuming that if a bitch gives birth early (like 57/58th day) this may well follow to her daughters as well. I can not prove this statistically, (the numbers of litters bred are not enough) but to me it certainly seems that way.
And has been true.

I used to have bitches going longer and also having bigger puppies. I then suddenly got one that gave birth on the 57th day and the puppies were very small compared to earlier litters from related bitches. Her daughter had exactly the same...shorter pregnancy and small puppies.
Then I had a throwback to more normal size puppies and also longer pregnancy.
To me it stands to reason that even the duration of pregnancy is hereditory (oh if I could only spell that! - Perhaps by chance I got it right?)

As for vets...i have no problem here, but it certainly takes some time to find ones that you can trust and rely on. Like everything else, there are good and bad ones...