Is the Irish setter a ruined breed?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Breeders say they are active to improve the breed. Statistics on health, scientists and independent setter-experts claim exactly the opposite. Topics on health here inspired this topic. Did breeders make a mess of the Irish setter (called a "ruined breed" by expert Florence Nagle) or not and why, when & how yes or no in your eyes?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Is the Irish red and white setter also a "nasty shock" Ursula and all? Was this not about turning the clock back? Should we not be grateful for that?

[ursula wilby]

I was thinking healthwise Henk, and not colour.

None of the setters in the "good old days" were checked for anything. Neither do we know about ALL the puppies they produced. We only know about the sucessfull ones!
How many % would that be?
Going back and reading breed-books, you read about famous dogs...ever noticed stories about X ALSO being the sire of Y´s dog that went lame as soon as he went near a field? Or being the sire of many dogs that had fits and had to be shot?
Of course not!
History is written in a very selective way.
And it was far easier in the "good old days" to sweep things under the carpet than it is now with (at least in many countries) health-records being public.

Also writing ANYTHING you select WHAT will be written. The text written may be the truth, but it does certainly not have to be the WHOLE truth, and we should not be naive enough to treat it as such.

Ursula

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes Ursula I've read A LOT on all kinds of problems diving up, while reading clippings from Dog World and Our Dogs. So I would never make such a comment like you do....Before commenting, I want all facts.

Nowadays dogpress does not provide that information, certainly not in that quality!!!! Simple because in the recent past there were qualified people ringing bells - like W.J. Rasbridge and Florence Nagle. And they sure loved our breed.

Where is the openness you suggest? Ok on tests thats where we agreed already in the beginning of this topic. It was YOU pointing at the lack of reliable information healthwise so you are contradicting yourself. Registry of epilepsy in US Irish setters for example is a closed system.

If you ASSUME and later believe its a fact that in the past everything was much worser you can safely believe everything is better now. If that is the practice the breed is at high risk of being ruined.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Well Ginger when this topic started your reaction was who is Florence Nagle? Hopefully you know now she was one of the greatest Irish setter experts of last century. And if you like it or not, she was hugely critical on what was done to the Irish setter, her beloved breed.

You talk about education, so why don't you read her autobiography Mission Accomplished? It really is of help reading critical persons to do the best you can....At least I've learned from them....And you do not stick your head in the sand.

You believe this website can help, what about agreeing with eachother that you pick a puppy from alitter by letting your heart speak and looking it into the eyes. Do you really think theres any improvement possible in such a system?

Try to think what would not have happened since the seventies in the USA on PRA when there had been a kind of quality information from the UK - open and published. Because around that timelines, in the UK they already must have known what was about to happen..... Same for more to come....

Do you really think just arguing is a reason for launching topics? I can spend my time much better.....So for that reason there were just three and all of them document a lot. Most of all lack of education.....

[Joan Clancy]

Henk - you are a breeder. I am not. If I have done my research (which anyone interested enough in the breed to join this list probably has) and have chosen to buy a puppy from you, I would HOPE that the consistancy in your litter was such that I could choose one blindfolded! Don't knock the eye system...... at 8 or 10 or 12wks YOU cannot guarantee me more than potential. The eyes guarantee me a dog that I can bond with - for better or worse! Afterall, I have already picked that litter because of the health/pedigree/etc. I have been shown a handful to chose from. If your litter is so inconsistant that only one or two of the pups show any potential.....Do I want one of them??? And do you really see any improvement in breeding that one good pup, if the rest of the litter are iffy? IS YOUR line that ruined????????? Could YOU not keep the pup that looked into your heart and also assume it would be quality? Maybe some lines are more 'ruined' than the breed as a whole : )
(Just some thoughts from someone who is trying to understand all this)

[Joan Clancy]

I'm sorry. I meant to quote the paragraph I was refering to AND to sign my post, but AOL signed me off before I had a chance. AND it sent my comment before I clicked "add your reply" And now it won't let me edit my comment. So I have to do it this way.

"You believe this website can help, what about agreeing with eachother that you pick a puppy from alitter by letting your heart speak and looking it into the eyes. Do you really think theres any improvement possible in such a system?"

Joan Clancy

[Henk ten Klooster]

Joan, this topic is about did the Irish setter improve or not and why, when, how & yes or no in your eyes. So how breeders select a puppy is relevant. And ofcourse we all here like all puppies..... But alas not all can stay so you must make a choice. Of course you can do it by letting your heart speak and chose the one with those dreamy eyes. Or pick the most enterprising puppy.

Whatever priority you have, it has effect over longer term what priorities come first and what not. Maybe you understand it better in the words of W.C. Thompson (The New Irish Setter), while commenting the standard on head starting with: "While too much emphasis is sometimes given to the head, even to the point of obscuring other more important features of the dog".....

This is exactly what I meant.

What Thompson (USA) said, is documented by Gilbert Leighton-Boyce (UK) while describing the selection process of his mother. Leighton-Boyce warned for the effects of such a system over the longer term.... Note according to Bill Rasbridge, movement of the breed has "degenerated". He said exactly why and some writers here seem to agree with him (see posts of Frances and Ann) whereas others (like Ursula) say no opinion...

If you "stack up" puppies on a table and than chose like most showbreeders do, that has also effects of course....

Hopefully you understand this.

I've never seen people chosing blindfolded, but guess many owners wuld like to be blindfolded. First lick, thats mine!:-)))))

[ursula wilby]

I think we first and formost should assume that all of us breeding actually TRY VERY hard to get the healthiest puppies/dog.
I doubt if there is a breeder out here even thinking of knowingly using a dog that will produce puppies with defects.

As for the choosing of your future puppy in a litter, I assume that you would not choose a puppy by its eyes.
On the other hand if you were to think a little bit, you will see (or understand) that choosing by looking at a dogs eyes/expression etc is choosing with your heart or your gut. Its like a sixth sense, some people you like, some you dont.
There is that personal chemistry...same with puppies.
You may call it something else, but I believe you actually choose in the same way.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks again for all concerned joining in this topic. And again: it is for about time to end this one.

Also as reported before, my time has run out to be able to react regularly, reason being my (very limited) spare time is more spend outdoors: hunting, training, some falconry and a few field trials. Means especially more pleasure for my setters - they have a sixth sense knowing its about to happen. Just one glimpse into their eyes tells me they like me more. That was for you Ursula!:-)))) .

As stated before its better to cut this topic into pieces (NOT ME!!!) and in my eyes this is done by Ann Millington continuing with a Popular Sire Syndrome. Join that one!!!!

Cheers,

Henk ten Klooster.