Popular Sire Syndrome

[Ann Millington]

I have been asked about Popular Sire Syndrome, so here's my understanding.
(just speaking about dogs)
Each dog inherits its genes from its parents - two copies from each. The genes give the dog its distinctive qualities, bodily function, temperament, appearance, performane etc. Out of the thousands and thousands of genes that make up the dog, some are dominant and some recessive. The dominant ones show up immediately while the recessive one only show up when they meet up with another recessive at the same place in the dogs' DNA.

The Popular Sire is a Big Winner, he is much admired by everyone as being as near perfect as you can get (Judges have said so!!). He has a string of titles, everyone wants to use him and most of his puppies display his good qualities and become big winners too. Everyone who is someone has the Popular Sire in their puppies' pedigrees - it looks good! Everyone is happy!
BUT one generation on, where do breeders go? The dogs are half siblings - never mind.... my big winner and yours will produce even more big winners with Popular Sire on both sides of the pedigree!! Can't go wrong, can it?

Yes it can! All dogs carry detrimental genes - some serious, some not so much. If detrimental genes become obvious, we avoid them, but many are recessive and do not show, so we don't know they are there until they meet up - one from the sire and one from the dam - each parent being a carrier.

The Popular Sire passes on his good genes AND his bad genes. He does it very quickly, spreading them into perhaps all, or most, of the 'lines' of a breed. This is made possible by the ease of transport and through competition and publicity etc, these days. Hey! We all know about Popular Sire! We even import his sperm if we can't get our bitches to him!!

In former times the Big Winner moved in relatively small areas and was used over a longer period of time - time to evaluate his progeny and he himself!

The sire is not responsible for the whole puppy, its dam has an equal input and, rather than jumping on the bandwagon to get that name in the pedigree, breeders should take a much more care in choosing a stud that fits in with their brood bitch.

So what should we do?
1) Study carefully why a dog is a Big Winner
2) Study the Breed Standard, including function, and decide which points in your bitch (which is, of course IS the Best!) need strengthening.
3) Be aware that in reducing the number of individuals in a puppy's pedigree (in/close-breeding) you reduce the diversity of the gene pool.
4)The chance of producing something bad increases with every generation on, but that bad thing, when it shows up, will already be a problem and be widespread!
5) Not least - by concentrating on Popular Sire, many quality potentional studs are ignored - Quality dogs who have much to offer - specially a necessary contribution to the diversity of the gene pool.

It is not so difficult to find an Irish Setter stud given the great number of Irish Setters there are around the world - consider the plight of IRWS! Good studs are like gold dust! However, in the analysis of the breeding in 2006, out of the 18 litters bred in the UK, 2 dogs had sired 2 litters, 1 dog had sired 3 litters and 15 litters all had a different sire. In IRWS we are very conscious of the gene pool and breed diversity!

How do you see the Irish Setter gene pool and its breed diversity?

Cheers
Ann

[Susan Stone]

Looking at the breed diversity from a 'world-wide' view I'd assume the breed to have large diversity - as we discovered when talking about different types. Unlike the R&W, I think the Irish Setter has evolved separately in different geographical regions for the last 100 years or so.
However when looking at the problem within a smaller geographical area I'd say yes, the breed diversity is at risk. I feel in Britain and possibly more recently in Ireland also, the situation is becoming rather more dangerous. Please correct me if I am wrong!
Working with the in-breeding coefficient over the last say 6 generations probably would help (I don't know how many generations are normally taken in consderation), but only up to a point, as we know that the inbreeding goes back much further. It would be very interesting if a DNA profile of some of the present day dogs (from different families) could be done. This would really show the level of inbreeding present.
This was done in Switzerland for the Bernese Mountain Dog some years ago and the dogs from assumedly unrelated families were found to be as closely related as litter siblings. This is a breed with many health problems (cancer, epilepsy, bloat). Since then an outcross programme has been initiated & various ideas for health monitoring are now being followed. To mention just two: limitation of stud use and promoting longevity by the use of elderly stud dogs.

The risk of too stringent health monitoring lies once again in reduction of the gene pool... how do you deal with this in R&W?

[Ann Millington]

The best software I have found is Breeders Assistant for Dogs (they do other animals as well)
When you have entered the necessary data - and that's absorbing it will work out the Co-efficient of Inbreeding (COI) for you and manipulate all sorts of things you want to keep a record of. If you type Breeders Assistant in your search engine you'll get there. You can download it or get it on disk.

Ann

[Henk ten Klooster]

You ask how do you see the Irish setter gene pool and its breed diversity? Here's a try.

You talk about "the seven original imports" for Irish red and white setters (IRWS) in the UK. Lets get a date in IRS history with seven leading male families in the UK. That was the prewar period in the UK. At that date prominent in the breed were: 1) Muskerry; 2) Young Phil; 3) Royal Sovereign, 4) Ossory; 5. Ch Peaceful Times; 6) Ch Ravenhill Phil; 7) Ch Palmerston.

For UK-influenced cultures, only one of these ( number 4) is still present in direct male lines. With one exception question marked, but regarded by many experts to be 4 as well. This documents effect of pss over a longer period perfect: no diversity left.

UK/USA lines are closely related via Boynes, prominent behind Wendovers (UK) and USA showlines. The other link is Hartsbournes (UK), of which quite a few became keydogs in the USA.

If you want diversity, it is in cultures not so much influenced by UK or USA-showcultures. These are for IRS in dual/ hunting lines in Scandinavia mainly. Especially Norway. The website of the Norwegian club (NISK) is great on extended pedigrees plus facts on descendants. Take your time and enjoy finding out many of said "extinct" families are still present there.

As for Irish working lines. Moanruad Brendan is leading in both: IRS/IRWS.

If you want diversity in these, Scandinavian field/dual lines are an option. Plus a group of descendants of AM FCH Sulhamstead Norse d'Or present in AKC and FDSB field Irish. Last link has proven to be succesfull in Norwegian working cultures.

So theres still chances to refresh genepools.











If you base yourself on that fact only (and we're talking popular sire syndrome), the diversity dived down in IRS hugely.

[ursula wilby]

It all sounds very good, scandinavian lines and chances of refreshing the genepool....great!

But it may be worthwhile to note that there is as huge a differance between the scandinavian field trail setter and the "other" irish setters in (at least) Sweden as there is between the american and english showtype. That goes for all aspects, size, heads, colour and last but not least = Temperament.
The irish setter in Sweden is (for better or worse) a totally divided race.

Ursula

[Henk ten Klooster]

Lots of differences, types within types, right! We had a game here on television called Wie van de drie (Who in three). Three persons saying they were the real McCoy. Who do you think would be the real Irish setter and how to define that one? Sometimes it looks as if it is only a breed sharing a colour and not even that...

So we agree on differences!

But the topic is popular sire syndrome. It is a documented fact that popular sires and a rising inbreeding coefficient endanger breeds future. So repair that, no matter what type you prefer. (Future) health is more important than todays trends and selection is a proven method to return to your taste.

Irish red and white setters provide a good demonstration of possibilities. They come from red Irish setters with white markings and without...All from Irish working lines....Though I do not agree on the policy of the UK club -in my eyes stealing an Irish working heritage- they certainly show us quite a few healthy approaches of how not to make the mistakes of their red family!

So no reason to just sit and wait seeing how a breed is at high risk of being ruined.

Henk.

[Barbara Simpson]

I agree that the popular sire syndrome is detrimental to any breed, no matter which one it is. It limits the gene pool when it should not be limited. For instance, in the U.S., we have a very large selection of breeding stock in Irish Setters and the Irish Red Setter (FDSB registered but not AKC registered). There are many lines to choose from. Many long time successful breeders, of both types of Irish Setter here in the U.S. have discovered that a certain amount of line breeding, especially thru their bitch line, usually sets type and you can outcross every 3rd or 4th generation to bring in another feature that your line might not be as strong in, such as chiseled heads, length of neck, shoulder layback. One long time very successful breeder from Southern California told me back in the late 1960's, you can gain or lose a nice headpiece in one generation, you can lose a good front in one generation but it will take 5 generations to start getting that front back, usually 7 generations. So, what are you willing to sacrifice when you outcross, depending upon the structural quality of the dog you're outcrossing to. If the dog has a great front and his parents, grand parents and great parents, also had a great front, then go ahead and breed to him if you already have a great front too. If he is the only dog in his litter and none of his parents or grand parents had good fronts, then don't waste your time or energy breeding to that dog. A top winning dog that is lacking in a good front is not going to miraculously produce a great front even out of a dam with a great front. I don't just look at the sire and dam of a proposed litter, I look at 5 generations on both sides of the pedigree for qualities I want to see reproduced in my litters. Canadian, American Ch. Rustwoods Even Chance was a product of an outcross breeding then brought back into a line breeding the next generation. If I had it all to do over again, I would do the same two breedings again. Can't say the same thing about other litters I bred previously, based on what other breeders suggested that I do. I have never subscribed to breeding to the popular sire either, my last litter was sired by a dog who was not a finished Champion but I saw his 2 previous litters out of non-related bitches and saw qualities in the offspring that were not in the dam's side of the pedigrees. I knew what he could produce from his individual gene pool.

[Ann Millington]

This is very true and the, in my mind, the right approach to the problem of PSS - don't listen to the 'oos' and 'ahhhs' of the 'fancy'. Make your own judgements, based on knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree and a clear idea of future of your breeding into many generations.

This goes for working dogs too. Owners can become so fixated on performance that they lose sight of the dog - and the breed.
Ann

[ursula wilby]

We have certain breeds (Drever I know of, there may be others) in Sweden where a sire is only allowed to have a set number of puppies. (The breedclub decided put up this rule due to the high inbreeding)
This has got the advantage that:
A) The studowners actually thinks BEFORE accepting a bitch and its not just "if they are willing to pay they can use him"
B) It spreads the genepool and dogs that before no-one would consider are being used.

As far as the Drever is concerned, this started in the 90's and is not a permanent messure but rather one to be evaluated at a later stage. The admount of puppies each sire is allowed has been increased but is at the present date a recomended number of 150 puppies and absolute maximum of 200 during the stud-dogs lifetime. (There are 1000-1500 puppies registered of this breed each year.)

I am NOT suggesting anything...mainly pointing out that there are breedclubs that deal with this problem in a rather harsh manner.

[Henk ten Klooster]

The committee of the Dutch club for Irish setter owners (around 800 members) decided to have a maximum coefficient of inbreeding (COI).

This is to be read in their monthly clubmagazine, delivered by the postman today. Breeding with descendants from a mating with a COI above 5,0 is not permitted.

Recently the club made the COI available for members over ten generations.

As well, the health-committee of that club works together with the Finnish club to search for the marker responsible for epilepsy. The Finnish club started earlier to research this in cooperation with the Department of Medical Genitics, University of Helsinki and Folkhalsan Institute of Genetics.

Breeding was further restricted by a set of new rules.

As for pss theres a a popular bitch symdrome pbs as well: maximum three litters per bitch.

[ursula wilby]

All my bitches (except one) have had a maximum of three litters. So I dont have a problem with what you wrote Henk, but I can not see that the NUMBER of litters can be the deciding factor here (pbs as you call it) it must be the number of puppies produced!

[Henk ten Klooster]

The rules are: no matter how many puppies. In my eyes nine out of ten Irish setters here are just like every UK influenced culture close family. So it would be better if you talk about pss or pbs to introduce popular family syndrome (pfs) as well and decide its better not breeding at all but importing a few new families to refresh.... Interestingly, some clubs did that in the past. Like the Danish club - by buying in a Sulhamstead...d'Or from Florence Nagle. Now, thats a refreshing approach!

[Henk ten Klooster]

They write the choice for 10 generations is made to make a "representative" COI.

I don't know of any action on COI before in the system of the Dutch club, the first & eldest in the setterworld to register problems in the breed. Apparently members of the health-committee (showbreeders) are convinced a high COI is a source for (future) problems.

Ann what is your opinion on that chosen maximum percentage?