Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Import played and play still an important part in Russian dogs in all times, very close inbreeding been restricted from the very beginning., wrote Gennadi.

Can you tell some more on that? It would be quite unique as the story of breeding Irish setters in most cultures is one of inbreeding heavily. And from what I read in Marr's Pointer und Setter (1964) the crosses were not much. Quote (pp 127 quick translation from German) ...."Of all three setters the red setter is the eldest and until now the purest one, although during their history they could not escape crosses."

Marr also mentions Glencar (namegiver of the Moscow club?), KCSB 19594. He states they were from the breeding of Gibbon Hawkes. You say the Moscow club is "some kind of mafia" on what do you base this? Closed cultures in IS are more the rule than the exception!!!! There are hardly any real influential scenes who are like open books. Entering some of them could provide you a hangup for the rest of your life.

Reactions on other contents (quotes italic)

Maria Mendeleeva - famous Russian dog judge and expert, daugter of Dmitry Mendeleev wrote in 1912, that most of Russian hunters prefered to hunt with mixed dogs.

Thats not new, in all cultures until now hunters made new breeds using some specialists like pointers and setters, this is well documented in the making of more continental European gundog breeds. And still goes on.

Ireland where the Irish setter was for about the only hunting breed until WWII (see O'Dwyers book) did not escape this either - nowadays the IS is just one of the many breeds active there. And crossbreeding there is as well preferred by quite a few hunters under more droppers (pointer x IS), some of which bred by ex-red setter people.

Uncle of my wife got two IRS before war and after war, looking at these photos I see strong dogs with bold good heads, that looked like the best UK duals at the time.

Memories of great dual Irish setters have inspired quite a few fanciers. Some great stories about people trying to restore them, conflicts later within their fraternities, because others wanted to crossbreed etc. American Red Setter history is full of them.

I recognise a lot in this quote, Irish setters I knew as a boy were great duals. In all aspects especially health better than what comes from competiton scenes now. While hunting in Denmark I saw quite a few IS approaching but not beating this ideal.

After revolution of 1917 pure bred and not pure bred dogs been mixed with each other, that why a modern type of Russian Irish setter got some differences from standard. First of all it's dog head. Russian-Irish head allmost got no stop, muzzle is sharp at the end and short, etc. Dogs, especially when dog is young, look like borzoy dogs, there is no any traces of bloodhounds we can see in some showbred dogs in UK. Legs got no enough angles and long at the same time. Modern original Russian bred IRS is light weight dog and light boned, colour is light red. Some time ago these dogs were pretty heavy.

Believe makes the difference with proving. But the type you describe is one I know very well diving up in relatively pure (there is no such thing as pure, is proven in this topic) lines as well. Not enough angles is debatable see Red Setters in the USA, they can run like hell for a full hour. Too much angulation is on average the problem in showlines, UK and even more USA. O'Dwyer describes exactly why. Light weight light boned colour light red sounds like many working strains with Irish blood.

First generation of Russian and imported dogs usually gives very good results in exterior and in fields, even when dog mixed with showbred dog. Later all these qualities of these dogs disolve in strong Russian bloods and next generations look like typical Russian dogs.

Quite logical. But you can breed your ideal type from these lines as well. Needs careful mixing and most of all selection. For the benefit of breeds future don't throw away old Russian lines because you think UK show ones are better in conformation. Last genepool is so highly inbred, that the future of the breed might depend on the way we can push back its influence rapidly.

If we'll get a chance to import working bitch of the best Irish lines here this year, later I will think hard about breeding her with Amadeus, but my friend - good breeder is strongly against it, she tells me I have to go to France or Italy and to find good working dog for such breeding.

France is for working only near to pure Moanruad via Von Royal working and own imports. There are some interesting dual lines with some old strains like Mullencluain, old dual French, some modern show, some old Hartsbourne they cannot compete at spring trials with the top in speed. Your expert to contact is dr Jean Hostin. He might be the best informed IS expert of all cultures now, very old. Knows Nash since youth and so the development. The top for working is Apache (looks top as well-showwiner) and Urtis. Heavily inbred. But inbred x non related inbred still makes low coi. Make sure the next step is ok.

Italy is divided over two clubs one work only mainly Moanruad and one show + work.There are some good looking reasonable performing IS with some intresting ancestors, a bit Italian a bit Wendover, a bit Sulhamstead in backregions of extended pedigrees etc.

If you want dual dogs, I guess a trip to Scandinavian cultures especially Denmark is advisable. Or buy in IRWS - quite a few working are in conformation as well still eye-catching dogs.

To breed or not to breed your dogs with Russian dogs - I think every breeder have to decide it by himself. Ask Lohmann's about their experience and what did they see in such litters.

Yes to hear Christianes ideas with her knowledge of German/Scandinavian lines as well is intresting. Because these three cultures from working/dual circles seem until now the only ones, really able to beat the coi problem for the rest of the world.

By the way there was a drawing of the Czar kennels in the book published when the Finnish birddogclub celebrated its centennial 2001. Great festivities at the time. Good to see as well Scandinavian GS, from crossbred lines to ES (the Steen scheme). Perfect! There is a site for Czar fanciers with an Irish setter story, no I don't remember the link.

A long answer, but I guess for all of us here the Russian scene is quite unknown and many people would want to learn more about it. Talking about that, I remember a friend going over there said for a long time there was a breed warden active in the former Soviet Union who was very strict about purity. Is she gone?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for your contributions on Russia. You've shown at least that what you write about America is not appropriate for your own country. You know huge country, huge lot of lines, huge lot of differences within groups etc. Why should that not be the case for the USA? As for the Moscow club, I've analysed their facts and contacts on their website with interest. Good to know you stating they're not really mafia!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks heaps Lena! Is very important for breeds future to get to know non or not so much related families. Seems she is still going strong!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Heres a general post concerning this topic. I want to close it soon, lacking time (hunting season). Meanwhile I've seen the discussion continues in other lists like Caninegenetics. There a cross between IRWS and "old Wendovers" (with the wrong assumption they carry a lot of old Sulhamstead blood) or Welsh springer spaniels is discussed. If you want to discuss some matters in the topic and can stay on topic, welcome. Can we aim at a deadline Saturday?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks all contributors for participating in this topic. Heres a few observations at the tail. If you chose to discuss these or parts of it, I suggest you start a new topic.

"Conflict over COI" became the number one topic in the existance of Exclusively Setters in both reactions and number of pages. After bubbling under for some time as an average topic in responses, it accelerated. Although the topic deals with a rather local affair: the Irish setter club of the Netherlands, maximising the coefficient of inbreeding (coi) because of "serious health problems".

Scanning public databases of Irish setters reveals, the "local" affair is worldwide as the main genepool in the Netherlands does not differ much from the one in the UK and from both sources a bigger part of the Irish setterworld. In other words if the Netherlands has problems, it would be logical that the rest has problems as well. Debate in this topic did not reveal this to be a fact. This may mean: a) problems do not exist; b) problems do exist but kept silent; c) only lucky ones are gathered here.

"Conflict over COI" widened to non or not so much related families. Relevant, because inbred versus non or not so much related inbred produces lower coi. Thats why safeguarding non or not so much related families is important for survival of a breed over a long term. More times the question was in "who still knows non or not so much related families". Near to no one came up with examples, although the Scandinavian genepool is an example and the Danish was mentioned in minutes of the Irish Red Setter Club (parentclub) in 1993 documenting a need for outcrossing. Though one did dive up: Russia's genepool of "own" lines and their guardian.

"Conflict over COI" and other topics very related (spermbank, computer programme for coi) showed there is a lot of confusion. Under more about the terms linebreeding and inbreeding, documenting still a lot do not know, that what they think is linebreeding (a term in discussion or deleted in more enclyclopedia on the net), can be in fact closer inbreeding than sister x brother. Plus that with extending pedigrees, a coi percentage rises considerable. More kennelclubs (like the Swedish) have systems to get to know the coi, but lack info so provide a far too low coi. Under more where top stud dogs UK are involved.

"Conflict over COI" became focused on crosses with other breeds, a shortcut to lower coi. Only a few answered the question whether or not it could be a solution. Irish red and white fanciers came up with "crosses" with Irish red setters, excluding IRS genepools like the Scandinavian and field American, described as "not genuine Irish". Crosses to other breeds in the past especially the bloodhound and or flatcoated retriever raised much interest. Apparently not many setterfanciers were aware of these happenings, although they were published in UK dogpress and quite a few books reveal doubts on relevant pedigrees all in a main UK tail male line of descent.

"Conflict over COI" and related topics illustrated a fading knowledge of fundamental families in the breed and knowledge of extended pedigrees. If many geneticists saying a too high coi may lead to extinction are right, this illustrates a danger for Irish setters red/red and white in future.

This is quite some harvest for a local affair, showing theres a lot to think about.....

[Henk ten Klooster]

High COI problem like it was discussed here is nonsence. write Gennadi.

If you want to re-open dicussions go ahead. Please provide facts and not just your unwillingness to deal with points. This only documents the old saying that while seeing you can be blind and while hearing, you can be deaf.

Check for facts: Canine-Genetics:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canine-Genetics.