Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Interesting to read an opinion of an Irish setter fan who knew Rasbridge & James and was an observer of how breeding can become a tragedy and a success with dogs from the same kennel. Do you suggest that not a rising COI is cause of problems but lack of- or wrong selection? If so - on what observations is this based?

Of topic but still intriguing: what is so friendly about a killing you softly expression?

[Dee Rance]

Oh my....you have hit it on the head...when there is a problem in the breed it is our responsibility, as breeders, to put our hands up and say 'we have a problem' unlike what is happening at the moment, 'oh dear we have never had that in our lines before, it must be something you have been doing wrong'.
I lost all my lines with bloat in the late 70's early 80's, I could have gone on breeding, because vets didn't believe it was anything other than a management problem.( I feel that it is a familial problem ie hereditary.) Only when you try and do something in the breed you cannot get enough people to admit that they too have a problem. These things need ''numbers'' to do the research with. (Even when you have one of the top geneticists saying that they want to help.) Its this 'brick wall' that is the main problem. Not the COI although if people knew all the problems in the back of their breeding this would be a help, (if they were responsible breeders) new problems are coming up every day...... I stopped breeding, I felt responsible for the puppies I produced. and consequently lost all my lines and had to start again.
So I agree with your comment on 'we' and 'them' we all own Setters, they all came from the same original stock, and this 'elitism' of Show v Hunting should stop. the show people and the Hunting people all doing their own thing, we should be working TOGETHER. Not slinging mud at each other, after all we should all have the same aim, don't you think..... To better the breed....whatever it is used for.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Dee, well you hit the nail as well.... Variation (lowering coi) needs to "hunt" all groups, certainly the working.

Your observation on bloat is honest - scanning nowadays pedigrees I saw one UK show champion diving up a huge number of times who was said to have died from bloat at a show. So yes problem is certainly NOT ONLY coi!!!!

[Jo Ottinger]

I agree with you Dee.

[Henk ten Klooster]

There are a lot of reliable sources saying epilepsy is not a result of a rising coefficient of inbreeding (COI).

An article dealing with COI was written by biologist Vincent Schouten in the Jubilee-publication of the Dutch club (1915-1980). In it is under more reported, there was no correlation between inbreeding-percentage and epilepsy in Welsh springer spaniels.

Research in the Dutch health-registry system for Irish setters (3000 documented at the time) neither provided proof of a correlation. The committee of the Dutch club now says there is a correlation – epilepsy is in setters with a higher COI than 5. Proof or coincidence?

Around a decade before this publication, proof of selection being a main tool in this aspect was provided by kennels continuing to breed from a population having provided a lot of epilepsy in the sixties in the Netherlands. Some quite succesfull breeders bred from healthy setters of this kennel. No big problems as far as known, so apparently selection worked.

The breeder himself, a vet, stopped breeding and in one of his last publications in the clubmagazine said something like no bigger price for a breeder than breeding healthy stock only needing a visit to the vet for inoculations. This decision was selection as well: stop!

Chances are in that lowering COI provides a false impression that this tool is sufficient. From all material read, some views here and scientific reports comes three necessary steps beneath lowering COI (1): is searching for and subsequently maintaining more non related families (2) plus more selection (3) and a documentation-centre (4) maintained by setter clubs worldwide incorporating the Dutch system for health-registry, managed by skilled persons.

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Off topic: I’ve never read before “killing me softly eyes” for Irish setters and think of it as an intriguing expression. Just like “half devil/half angel” for its character. Maybe food for another topic some other time? Wat denk je d’r van Wilco. Camilla - what is your point?

[Susan Stone]

I am not sure I fully agree... I fear we are concentrating too much on the simpler Mendelian rules of inheritance here? There are many traits that are so much more complex. There are various factors that have quite a high heritability such as head, shape, conformation, others such as HD have a medium heritability and it is not possible to assess the genotype of a dog with for example A hips, then there are factors with a low heritability such as immunity to illness, fertility, longevity... IMHO this is where a high COI can lead to problems.

Various studies have been made and are still being done for epilepsy in different breeds and it has been shown that there are different modes of inheritance for what will be given the name of ideopathic epilepsy. Some breeds are more clearly affected by a simple recessive gene that causes epilepsy where it is possible to follow the pedigree back to an affected ancestor. More often though it is not possible to find a culprit (something we all love to do;-)) and this form of epilepsy must be seen as a threshold trait caused be various factors comig together. To my mind this type could be affected by a higher level of COI.

The knowlege of genetics is changing so very fast and a lot of resaerch is being done in both humans and animals. It is extremely difficult for us breeders, as most of us do not have the scientific background that would be needed to understand the more complex traits.

I absolutely agree with what most of you say: information and honesty is what we need most!

[Susan Stone]

Thanks Leen!
I am pleased you have explained the 'threshold point' with the example of the 8 defective genes. That was something I would have liked to mention but just don't have the knowledge to put it clearly...
I fully agree that 'controlling defects is far more complicated than simply lowering COI' - and I think an increased awareness amongst breeders is the first step in the right direction.

[Henk ten Klooster]

There was a blog post here removed for unknown reason in which the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) dived up. Apparently some respondents in the blogpost missed this topic, heres a relaunch plus update. Who removed Lucy's blogpost on her all sick Irish setters and why?

The proposal was accepted by a small majority at the AGM of the Dutch club for Irish setters. Later the IRWS was excluded because their average COI is way above 5 and numbers considered too small to for such a rule. But they should strive at that maximum in near future, the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club stated.

Glimpsing pedigrees of UK studdogs some of which involved in the blog-discussion on Lucy's sick Irish setters indicates quite a few are far above this maximum.

So maybe a reason to re-open discussions here.

[Laura Kolbach]

it was lucy who removed the blog post. you might also see that she disappeared from the site...

[Henk ten Klooster]

How do you know she did it herself? And did she disappear herself or?

[Laura Kolbach]

you can just delete your profile here... i was online all night and saw the steps she made. who else would it be? i can't delete your posts or your comments, only mine. and i don't think the admin cares about just us with all those thousands of nings online...

[Henk ten Klooster]

If you are right Laura, it makes her sad story even more sad. Another reason to think how to prevend situations in which people apparently chose to hit and run (or have no other choice). For example by debating open why a system under fire (huge inbreeding) is or is not prolonged and exactly why.