So far I have preferred not to take part in the discussion concerning the judge's gradings at the world show. I was not there. Also I feel that once you decide to enter under any one judge you must also be prepared to accept his/her verdict. If you don't agree, well you don't enter again under said judge.
If it comes down to 'british' judges versus 'FCI' judges - I feel that comparison just does not work out as we all have different opinions as to gradings. I also maintain that even the FCI standard is open to interpretation on many aspects of the dog.
What must be taken in account is that the definition of the gradings 'excellent', 'very good', 'good' etc. differs strongly from the way the gradings are generally used by the judges (and expected by the exhibitors!!!). How many of us have seen whole entries graded 'excellent' despite there being various types of dogs present, most of who would not be considered 'near perfect' as the definition says. Most FCI judges are accustomed to the way in which the gradings are given, but a judge from the UK who is given the definitions prior to his/her judging apointment, does not always have knowledge of the way in which these gradings are applied. And as we all know this varies not only according to the judge but also according to the country and also to the level of competition present!
I assume the competition at the world show was strong, so the judge may set a higher standard for the grading 'excellent'. According to the FCI definition dogs graded with 'very good' are still of very high quality but have small faults that do not allow the grading 'excellent'... and do any of us own the perfect Irish Setter?
Back to the experience at the world show, maybe it helps to know about the show scene in the UK.
At the championship shows In the UK it is considered very important for a judge to judge to 'type', meaning that all placed dogs are of similar breed type. Given the numbers of Irish Setters at UK shows it is quite often possible for a judge to stick to his/her 'type' for all the placings and not consider others of different type. On the continent we don't have this luxury and must judge and grade various types according to our knowledge of the breed standard and according to our experience.
With this background knowledge of the english way of judging, I would assume that the grading 'excellent' would only have been given to dogs that the judge considers to be of the breed type he/she prefers.
Susan, it was not my intention to split up between british/FCI judges and you surely have mistaken me !
I could have written "the judge on the world dog show"...but wrote "british judge" instead.
All I was wondering about was, why a critic can be excellent and the result very good...
I would expect a clear statement if the dog lacks type, body, angulation, movement, nerves ...or simply WHAT is expected to be better...
I think that everything can be accepted and discussed, but it is a standard and equal for all judges FCI. But the most unacceptable thing for a breeder is not written judgement on what is good and what's not good. Writing a report all excellent and super but then give very good. This is very difficult to accept and a judge has to understand what needs to be done. The significance of the show is not win but absolutely understand for a breeder.I say maybe wrong? Or we let them just compete without learning?
Christiane, Valery - I don't mean to criticize anyone, I'm just thinking about possible explanations. I may be completely wrong!
I agree we expect a critique to reflect the good and the bad points of a dog. BUT from what I have experienced in Britain there is still the sportsman's law of not openly criticizing faults. Certainly not all would judge in this way: I have also known the oposite;-))
I remember assisting at a Retriever club show here in Switzerland and all the judges were from the UK. During dinner we started discussing exactly this point. Some of the judges stated they would always try to highlight to the good points of an animal, often not liking to put anything negative. The one I later stewarded for had a middle approach: First all the positive and at the end a little 'however - I would prefer...etc'
Maybe this is a culture clash?
As to standard being clear for everyone: give the standard of the Irish Setter to an artist who has never seen the breed before and let him draw it on account of the written standard only... the result could be hilarious:-))
Standard ask full FULL DENTITION and SCISSOR BITE.
We do not mind, if P1 is missing. But have a look at a jaw, where P3 and P4 in a row is missing. Not much left.
A lower degree is given, when P3 plus another one is missing.
Disqualifying happens, when P4 plus another one is missing.
We are not as strict in teeth as for example norwegians are. They give dogs a lower degree, when they have one teeth missing.
just back home from Sweden , and very happy with Kimmo , just 24 months old , first time in Open and got the Excellent , i can inmagine the dissapointing by the owners from the dogs in Champion as well in Open/junior that graded so low with Good and very Good , i would be too , very proud of Pelle , he became 3th in Champion with Excellent , gordons , we knew in front that he preferred the American/Australian types
Once again congrats to all the winners!Very well done Kimo and Pelle you are both still young dogs!
Very good discussions and very fruitfull too!I must be sincere and say my opinion is most close to Susan's and Christiane explained the matter very precisely!
All of us breeders,judges,exhibitors-owners must admit there is a great problem in our lovely breed.It seems each country has his own type????!!!What does it mean?Breeders must follow the standard when planning new litters/many of them choose the winning dogs only without respect of the compatibility in gentyp and fenotyp,judges too,exhibitors have what they have,are keen of showing,are in love with their owndogs especially when they already have some good results and now they meet a very good judge with full understanding of the breed who sees something the otherones haven't mention before-disaster!
The new size standard is acknowledged since 2001st.Who cares about it and how often?Befor openly published I got the letter concerning all the details from Mr.U.Fischer to our kennel club,then some years ago I judged Cacib Munich.Yes,only german club assistences worned me before the start to be very careful with the size and height with irish setters.Since then I have shown my own dogs many times and judged and not mentioned all people involed took care about it.Since then soooo many oversized dogs got champion titles.To see the size is the most easy thing to see,but what about the type and other features?
Expression,stop eyes,brows so very imprtant for my opinion by an irish!What about many champions with hackney movement which is not only the fault of front feet moving,but shows and is the reason of some bodystructure faults etc.,etc,
At this show surely strange thing for all very goods in champion class without the clear explanation!
But one thing is sure:Nowadays there is an inflation of champions in all breeds!Why can anybody answer please?
The thing with the judge who preffered the american and australian types....What does it mean?
Once upon a time I stewarded by the famous judge at the Cacib show-a very nice springer spaniel for me as the beginner in the breed entered with his handler.Good size,lovely coat perfectly groomed and handled....very good in the end of judging.The handler asked the explanation from the judge:I am the FCI judge and this is an american type was the short answer!I was lucky to have got sme more explanationa.And the dog really came from the States.The next day by another judge the same dog was Bob,Big and res.Bis.All the cynologs said the first judge was right,the handler from the States and his friends admired the second judge ofcourse,but he really was not the better judge of the firstone in all the aspects of judging.What can we do ?That's life!
We exhibitors can only choose the judges by their knowledge,I find it the only way and we should carry on such good and sincere discussions,as perfect dog doesn't exist,but the differenceses between the dogs yes,and many!
Who were the judges of the specialties for all 4 setter breeds?
Pelle is the real English type of a Gordon Setter and it was really interesting to see what the judge would do with 3 American/Australian types and 1 English type in Champion class , he preferred the other type , fine by me , but he also loved the English type he explained afterwards to all handlers in the ring , in his opinion all 4 of the dogs in Champion class deserved to stand on 1 th spot but he only could give it to one , most of the entries for the Gordon setter where from the American/Australian types , the Open show had only 4 gordon setters entered , English judge prefer more the English type of Gordons and that you could see in the dogs who where there
What i never saw before is that they straightenend the coat with a straithener what you use for you own curly hair to get it straight , i saw it in the grooming area on the Gordons