Controversial new film on pedigree dogs

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Jemima Harrison's controversial new film "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" will be shown by the BBC on Tuesday evening at 9pm (Friday 9pm in Scotland). And should also be available on BBC iPlayer.
The Chairman of the KC Ronnie Irving has already issued a statement about the film, see the KC website, without even having seen it
Before it has even been shown, the film is causing considerable controversy in the UK, many people welcoming Jemima's two year research into the genetic problems caused by inbreeding in pedigree dogs, but a few breeds and the Kennel Club going on the defensive
See also the commentary by Beverley Cuddy, editor of Dogs Today, about the film and the recent research from Imperial College, London on the effects of linebreeding and use of popular sires
http://coldwetnose.blogspot.com/2008/08/pedigree-dogs-exposed.html

[Margaret Sierakowski]

An article by Patrick Burns (the Terrierman) in K-9 magazine

http://www.k9magazine.com/viewarticle.php?sid=15&aid=2294

[ursula wilby]

I have both watched the films and read the article written by Patrick Burns. Both very interesting but as to outcross...it needs the kennelclubs of the differant countries to take the first step.
No breeder will be able to, in fact one of the things we (as breeders and members of the swedish kennelclub) must NOT do, is breed a mixed breed-litter.
That is one of the fastest ways to get receive a warning and black mark against your name.

I dont feel that the irish setter is too badly afflicted, yet. But if our main concern is only to breed the most winning dog for the showring, it may well be.

And no, I dont hunt, but there other ways to work with your irish setters...and whatever you want to do with your dog, first and foremost it needs to be healthy.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Nobody can say nomore: we did not know....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk, Did you see the BVA video at

http://vets.tv/video.php?vid=117&cid=10

If you follow the discussion on the video about solutions to the problems in pedigree dog breeding, Caroline Kisko of the UK Kennel Club says that the KC will now allow crossbreeding again.
It would be interesting to follow this up with the KC, and find out for what reasons it will be accepted, and whether it will have to be agreed by breed clubs or if individual breeders can get outcrosses accepted

[Henk ten Klooster]

Margaret wrote "the KC will allow crossbreeding again".

So The Old Religion might return. That is a keyword in publications about resurrection the working red setter in the USA, fifties last century. Geneticists played a role in it as well.

Close analysis of publications suggest The Old Religion never disappeared in working worlds elsewhere but went "underground".

The "hero" of those fities-people was Joe Junior the red setter beating a "blue blooded" English setter 19th century. Analysis of his pedigree shows a lot of colors diving up plus Campbell setters (predominantly English). But definitily a red setter in type.

Over the decades, fruits of The Old Religion were removed in books on Irish setters (like those of W.C. Thompson). In the same time fanciers of the Old Religion were interviewing descendants of the Campbells to dig up old wisdom....

Back to now, the problem is not "The good the bad and the ugly", but people who do care for the breed and its health, at the same time continuing to practice the proven source of problems: prolonged linebreeding=inbreeding. A killing kind of love.

[Laura Kolbach]

From the KC newsletter today:
Live Webchat - Join Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary and Dr Jeff Sampson, the Kennel Club’s genetic advisor live on the 27th August at 12 to answer your questions and dispel concerns over pedigree dog breeding.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2004/23/5/3

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Hmmmm......
I wonder if this going to be really open to anybody to participate, or will they be filtering the questions ?

[ursula wilby]

I do find it hard to accept the point the Kennel club in England is making: That asking breeders to health-test their dogs BEFORE breeding from them will only make them breed anyhow but without any influence from the Kennel Club.

If it works in other countries...why not in England?
In Sweden we have rules and regulations regarding health-checks that apply to most breeds and these rules have to be followed before you are allowed to register your puppies. Of course you can breed without registering your puppies...no problem at all. And there are some purebred dogs for sale without papers. (Cheaper of course than puppies WITH papers). But few serious puppy-buyers want them.

No chance to show, no chance to breed (with papers) if ever you wanted to and no chance for most other compertitions and sports to gain the champion-title.
So without papers the dog is regarded as being of mixed breed, and I think that stops most buyers of pedigree-dogs. They have after all CHOSEN a particular breed and dont want to be excluded from all the things you can do with a pedigree-dog.

To be able to register your irish setter-litter, both parents need to be clear of CLAD and have clear hips, meaning A or B.
(As an added bonus the registration-fee is lower if both parents are either shown or competed with at any official show or compertition).

I have never once heard a swedish breeder complain about the fact that we are trying to breed healthier dogs, and that goes for other breeders of other breeds as well.

[Henk ten Klooster]

If life would be that simple.....An idea that health is but a few tests on clad, mo, hips, pra, von willebrand disease, cataract (both last still only in IRWS) is proven by scientists to be wrong. This film is about results of high inbreeding coefficient, deviation from original type, devastating influence of shows and standards. High COI in itself is the cause of problems existing or still bublling under.

[ursula wilby]

OK, its not THAT easy Henk...but at least its a start!
My reply was in reference to the answer given by the kennel-club in Britain. I have replied to the film itself previously.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes those tests can be a start....of many more problems! Its a chicken and the egg problem. Chicken is high coi, eggs are problems, testing providing breeders the excuse "we did all we can"........THEY DID NOT. Chose other chickens, down with that COI!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Breeders can lulled into a sense of false security believing that because they have done a lot of testing, all is well with their dogs or their breed. They dont generally ask too many questions about why they got the problems , for which they now have to test, in the first place. They end up going round in ever decreasing circles, test for another problem, discard a few more dogs from the gene pool, the gene poll continues to get smaller, some more recessive gene problems show up, more testing, discard more dogs............
More and more testing, without a change in breeding practices , is futile
In IRWS that isnt too easily done, even if breeders are willing to search around more widely for dogs to use in breeding, where do you go? I find myself being forced back into breeding from my own dogs, because in the UK I cant find anything which will give me a low COI AND is genetically clear of serious problems AND has proven working ability AND looks like a good IRWS. Its looking like my next two litters are going to be linebreeding again ,reluctantly