CAN ANYONE HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM

[Dee Rance]

Some will already know that Saffy has had a problem.....just what it is, I don't know. and nor it seem do the vets.
She was at a 'working/training day' on the Sunday, had a good day, didn't do anything different than she would on a good day out, we came home and she ate half of her supper (she was at the time in the middle of a full blown phantom pregnancy) so she wasn't interested in food, after about an hour she started crying, and stretching, the crying got to be a real worry, so called the vet.
First question she asked was 'how long since her last season'..... answer 7-8 weeks. 'Ah its probably a Piametra, but you do know that it costs to bring a dog in at this time???
So I took her to the vet. She confirmed that she thought that it was a 'closed Piametra' she kept her in and put her on a drip with a pain killer in it.
At 11 pm I got another call saying that she thought that the Piametra was about to rupture, and that I needed to consent to a 'spay' I really didn't want to go down that road but if it meant that her life was saved then so be it. BUT if nothing was found to be wrong with the Uterus then it was to stay where it was......
She phoned at midnight and said that the operation was over and the Uterus was still where it was supposed to be, she had a wee bit of gas in her stomach. This was removed and she found that the Spleen was enlarged and was tucked behind the stomach.
The small bit of gas became a large amount of gas and a twist or partial twist when asking the next two vets that I dealt with. (?) Bloat......
Having seen many cases of Bloat I told them that I brought her in with a gut pain NOT with bloat if it had been bloat I would have been the first to say, this in my mind was definitely not bloat.
Why is it always assumed that Irish Setter + Gas = Bloat why can it not just be Gas???
But the question still arises What was it.
On the following Friday night she started shaking so she went back in for the day, they took a few ex-rays this time and it seems that none of her organs are in the correct place.
She was put on medicine for stomach ulcers and she has been progressing well on them but can anyone help as to what it may be???? At the end of the day she seems to have had an operation (with all that goes with it) for nothing!!!!!

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Everyone, I see this forum hasn't been active for a while, but I would like to seek some thoughts from all of you out there who have had dogs that have bloated. A couple of dogs here in Australia have bloated in the past year after these lines that have not had any dogs bloated (to our knowledge) over many, many years.

Recent research has indicated that nervous/highly strung dogs are at higher risk to bloat than dogs that are not. Even though both of these dogs are not nervous or highly strung I am associating this to stress due to pain in both dogs.

Dog 1 - 8yr old female bloated 3-4 hours after feeding at night. After having operation for bloat and having her stomach stiched, it was found that she had a large cyst on her ovary, so she would have probably had considerable pain.

Dog 2 - 14 month old male bloated. Dog has been always feed several times a day and not predominantly dry food with a very varied diet. However, had previously had a broken leg and had been restrained to lead exercise for months prior to. Also at the time of bloating, the vet was unable to get tube down and the dog had a gastroscopy a couple of days later, and was found to have an ulcer at the opening of his oesophagus. So obviously for a little boy had dealt with quite a bit of pain in his young life.

Both dogs are both alive and doing well.

With that in mind, I would like to seek some thoughts on whether dogs under stress due to pain would also be at more risk of bloat than dogs that are not!

For members who have had a dog bloat, I would be very interested to know whether there was any other medical or health conditions that your dog may have been suffering at the time?

Cheryl

[Dee Rance]

Hi there Cheryl
There are many reasons that a dog can Bloat, sometimes it is just gas in the stomach, it will soon disperse when the dogs relaxes, but a true bloat, is something that, as we all here know is something that cannot be overlooked, and you only have about 2 hours to get your dog seen by a vet, or you will have a dead dog, many people that are just mainly pet owners, although I have to say that there are some people out there that don't quite understand how dangerous this problem can be. I have been told of people thinking that their dog just has a bit of a tummy ache and when they come down in the morning they have a dead dog, and one that died in absolute agony.
Bloat does seem to 'attack' the more nervous of dogs, it is difficult to describe 'nervous'...There is a body predisposition to bloat, (deep chest and narrow spring of ribs). Stress is another factor in this problem, my bitch blew when I left her with friends for a week, I couldn't take her with me, (that will never happen again, where I go she goes)
I have in the past had one of my bitches stomach stitched, when this was first thought of as being the end to all 'twisted guts' it wasn't....they could still twist when stitched, and of cause rip the stitches, this was many years ago, and (I think that the place and type of stitching has changed since then). This in my case is what killed my first Irish.
I also in those days fed a meat and biscuit diet, now I feed a dry diet, but I do add water, to the one that has blown. There is also a question over feeding the dog from a stand, this can give you more of a chance of bloating, because of the air that is taken in when the dog is feeding. I now feed my dogs with the bowl on the ground.
Perhaps the reason that the vet couldn't get a tube down was due to the fact that there was a twist or partial twist, and that this was maybe not a true bloat, the stomach can gas up and give the impression of bloat for many reasons, one being ulcer's in the stomach, perhaps a probiotice with the food would help, I know that it has helped another one of my bitches, she had Colitis and Gastritis with ulcers in the stomach all at the same time, I now give a probiotic with her meals, and haven't looked back. Although the ulcer was in the stomach not the oesophagus.
As I said before many things can cause gassing up, I have known two dogs that have had cancer that has burst their Pancrieas both dogs died from this, but the main symptom was a bloat, so perhaps this was connected to the ovarian cysts.
The problem is that you would have to know all about the families of the two dogs concerned and know what had happened to the whole family structure, before saying that these were NOT proper bloat. That also relies on peoples honesty and this is one of those problems that people just do not want in their lines....

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Dee
Thank you for your advice on this. I will pass on your suggestions and advice to the owner of this young dog.
Thanks. Cheryl

[Sandra Mather]

Im sorry that ~Saffy is going though this problem.Ive got cory going though problems at the moment. The vet started to say all what hes going though is hormonal and was gearing toward castration and now luckily we have a answer which has taken a few weeks to diagnose e coli.He had what now was cramps but the original was blood in his motion and i thought at first he just needed his glands emptying.So with all this going on for weeks my mind as been elsewhere and so has yours. Ive no answer for you over Saffy and hope she comes good.But i always say we know our dogs and the vets guess and isnt that supposed to be the other way around.
The pain Cory was in was stomach cramps and would make a noise.But at the time its hard to put things together. There were ulcers in all his organs and his prostate swollen which has now gone down im pleased. With him not living with me now i am on the phone constantly or by his side giving support.But luckily given time we can get him back out and about to shows.I hope this will be so for you and Saffy.

[Dee Rance]

Thanks for that Sandra
But Saffy has been fine since this happened, we have dicovered that it was a problem with her digestion and ''Bionic Biotic'' has cured the whole problem, it was Gastritis Colitis and a Stomach Ulcer all at once.
Perhaps you should try the 'Bionic Biotic' it is great for calming the stomach and intestines and it has helped Saffy over the past few months, problem is it isn't cheep, but hey its cheaper than the vet...
And yes it is supposed to be them that knows what is wrong but it isn't always that way around, we probably have more experience than then on many ways because over the years we have seen (probably too much) more than them in certain things.

[Sue and Cash]

This discussion frightens me quite a bit. Thanks for teaching meso much more about this condition that I have heard so much about in the past. My first male setter (25 years ago) was left intact and we lost him to prostrate cancer which had already spread all over his chest before we knew he had it. Never left a dog intact again since I do not breed. Next one we "let go" and ended his suffering due to severe skin allergies and 20 years ago there wasn't the diet options we have today nor did the vets help you even to figure out what was causing the issues because all commerical kibble was corn based. Anyway having had two sick ones that we loved die so young we switched breeds for sometime. Missing our beloved Irish we took a chance with our Dublin. Dub is very thin, deep chested, and narrow ribs as you discribed. He had a very funky stomach in the first year although lived with three men's crew socks in his gut for four days without anyone knowing till he threw them up. Thank god we almost had a horrible situation on our hands. He never ate anything I didn't offer up after that though! So he will get on occassion this upset stomach with the loudest gurgling. I mean loud enough to hear it from another room. Rumbles and grumbles and that is it. No vomiting or anything else. Is that gas? It must be. Would that mean he might be more prone to bloat perhaps? I watch him like a hawk. He does sleep with us so I can watch him and be near him. What other signs might I watch for though to get help in the short time frame mentioned? I had read it might be inability to settle in for the night. Restlessness I guess. Anything else I should know. Dee you mentioned the biotics. Would just plain yogurt help for that? Or do you find that Bionic Biotic the best one to use?

[Dee Rance]

Hi there Susan
First thing to remember is ''don't panic'' these dogs seem to have, what I call, screaming stomachs, and this is good because if you listen, its in the gut not the stomach and its the stomach that causes all the problem, but I have found that since feeding the 'poochandmut' Bionic Biotic Saffy's 'problems' have been curbed, she used to suffer so badly with a runny tummy. Every time she poo'd it was either very loose or a jelly type of consistency (lovely subject eh) but since using the biotic she has been good and firm, and as to the problem she had when I started this discussion....no more. But please don't go and think that your dog is going to bloat, although this is a fairly common complaint, it isn't going to be a for gone conclusion that your dog is going to suffer from it....Many breeds have it so that is why it is so to the for, many many breeds.
When I first got an Irish setter, I was talking to Janice Roberts, and a few other people and the discussion got onto bloat, I asked her if I would know what it was if it happened to my dog, how Janice answered me has always stuck in my mind, and I have over the years found it to be so so true. IF YOUR DOG GETS BLOAT, YOU WILL KNOW.. it is so different from anything else that you know, IMMEDIATELY. there is nothing like it, you do JUST KNOW what the problem is, if you haven't been for warned about it you would just think that your dog had a stomach ache and isn't feeling well. So please don't worry about your dog too much just be aware...I like you lost too many dogs in the past, with bloat in my case, I went into a different breed, but couldn't stay away from this wonderful breed, so am back with them, but with too much knowledge of this problem...but what I do know is they just need you to be aware of all these problems, not to have you hovering around waiting for them to happen...we hope they never do, please don't take offence at the hovering bit I think you will know what I mean.....

[Laura Kolbach]

The mail copied below circulates around quite often:

The 20 Signs of Bloat
A TRUE EMERGENCY!!! - DON'T HESITATE to get to a vet!!!
Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (GDV) or torsion - referred to as bloat.
20 Signs that your dog may be in trouble from bloat or torsion:
1. distended abdomen
2. rigid (hard) abdomen
3. painful when touched in the abdomen
4. vomiting foamy or liquid material
5. unproductive attempts at vomiting or retching
6. arched back
7. praying position (down in front, rear standing)
8. laying down on belly - crouched position
9. curling up in a ball
10. laying or sitting in an unusual location
11. seeking a hiding place
12. looking at their side
13. frequent swallowing (acrophobia)
14. hypersalivation (drooling heavily)
15. drinking excessively
16. lack of appetite
17. quiet, any abnormal behavior
18. lethargy, weakness
19. panting, breathing rapidly or heavily
20. red gums, or white gums (not normal pink color)
Another very important sign - If you have never seen bloat – and are unsure - "Tap" the side of your dog - if it sounds like a drum - you have 20 minutes to
get to the vet. Also - if you dog "looks bloated" and you can hear "water" sloshing - like one does in a horse - again - you have 20 minutes to get to the vet. You know your own dog the best and you know when things aren't quite right. Call your vet or take him to an emergency clinic immediately. Not all dogs show the classic signs of bloat, some may be very subtle or be at a pre-bloat stage. Bloat occurs very quickly and a dog can be in shock within minutes.Demand an X-ray, even if vet doesn’t think it’s bloat.

[Dee Rance]

I like the last part of that, and thank you Laura, for posting it, some of the things are also ''just one of those things'' ie could be anything or nothing, but put them all together, you could have a problem, and it is better to pester your vet, than wait and see, don't ever wait and see...
But the last few statements are very important, I have seen one of my dogs run to the end of the garden chasing a squirrel and when she had got to the end of the garden, she just collapsed, I was watching from upstairs and I think that I got to her and had her at the vets within minuets, and she was tubed and had a muscle relaxant etc and she was fine..well as fine as she could be...but she survived until she was 10, and she had many bouts of bloat...but not all vets will diagnose bloat, some just haven't got the first idea, they will say just take him/her home and wait and see, that X-ray is so important if this is the case...

[Susan Stone]

I also know of an occasion when the vet sent dog and owner home again... and a few hours later a different vet performed an emergency operation on the dog for GDV - this dog survived.

Our very first Irish died of bloat in 1979 as we had no idea what was going on and when we finally took her to the vet at 2 am because she was crying in pain, but we were too late to save her!

Since then I never feed my dogs and then leave them... I do not let them drink large amounts of water if I can avoid it... I checked with my local vet if they were quiped to operate in emergency... any kind of bloated appearance afer eating has me massaging their tummy and waiting for them to 'burp' ;-)

GDV is a killer.

[Dee Rance]

Again well said and I am so sorry for your first Irish with bloat, it is such a devastating problem, and if you have never had it, you just don't understand the people that have, we do tend to get paranoid about gas in the stomach, but we also get to know what is gas and what is something much more menacing. I hope that everyone out there never ever sees it. But if you do I hope that this discussion helps keep your precious, four legged 'kids' with you.

[Sue and Cash]

Excellent advice. Thank you all. Now i can only hope that our vet clinic is experienced with this should the need ever arise. The place I trust the most for specialist is over an hour away and requires a vet's referral. Hopefully I won't need it at all. Is it safe that Dub has two hours or more a day at our dog park with frizbee, chuck it ball throwing and just plain hiking daily? I mean he does tend to guzzle quite a bit of water often during this time. Even more when the summer comes.