Group judge chatting to eventual group winner before judging has even started??

[Carmel Murphy]

Would like to hear the opinion of show people on the scenario of breed judge(FCI (cacib) show) who has just awarded BOB to exhibitor and is happily and publicily seen chatting to the person before he judges the same person in the group and awards this person group 1 ??? Personally I think this very inappropriate!!!!!!

[Gillian Sterritt]

I fully understand that and especially here in Ireland where there is a small number of people and we all know each other and the majority of us are friendly towards one another. But I did use the word 'Close' friend, and if you socialise with these people, have them stay in your house etc, then personally I don't feel you should go under them.

[Carmel Murphy]

Very true Gillian!!;o)) 95% of us in Ireland get on very well together but we are not "close" friends!! Just ringside "show buddies"o))))

[Carmel Murphy]

I just dont give an entry any more to Judges who I know are in other Judges/exhibitors pockets!! Let your wallet do the talking;o)) Generally a low entry for a judge usually has a reason!!? Kennel clubs should start asking why some judges get low entries of dogs and others dont!!

[eva ciechonska]

I think you have to be very careful how you interpret size of entries. There are many other factors that could govern this. When I first started in the early 70s we had 3 dominant kennels. Exhibitors who had dogs from any one of these would more than likely not enter under the other two.....just a matter of type. The judges who prefered a specific type would put that up, including dogs they had bred themselves or by their own stud dogs. You just need to look into the archives to see. They also fraternised with each other, socialised with each other, went under each other and no-one got wound up about it. In those days dogs bred by the judge could enter under that judge. A notable example being D Debonair at Crufts 1993 who went on to win BIS!!!! No one got wound up about that either!!!! Of course you cannot do it any more. I still feel that if you are personal friends, or go to shows together etc etc it would be prudent not to enter, especially in this PC world but then, I reiterate where do you draw the line? Once you have eliminated every judge for something or other you might end up going nowhere.

[Carmel Murphy]

I know there are many other reasons for low entries!! But if a judge consistently has very low entries there is a reason!!

[eva ciechonska]

Could also be because that judge is just not a popular person. Or because everyone knows what dogs that judge will put up, and I do not mean that in a sinister way. Very often it can be as simple as that.

[Carmel Murphy]

I can accept a judge liking a particular type, or perhaps the judge is not well known!! I will enter under judges like that!! They are perfectly legitimate reasons!! I am talking from personal experience over here in Ireland where we see the numbers drop like a stone when a certain judge is officiating who is known to face judge even if looking at a poor example of the breed!!!! These type of judges do the breed no favours!!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Tania have faith.. We can all predict who is getting the cc, it is a game we play. Very often it is just because of the 'type' that particular judge has. Don't become jaded when you have barely started. A good, sound dog who meets the breed standard, in it's conformation, will most certainly have a very good chance though 'type', or it's interpretation, will vary, being more subjective. There are plenty of novice exhibitors who have got to the top with their first dogs. As for winning at a higher level in Groups and BIS, does it matter whether we have 'a real top Champion'? Surely having quality in depth is better than having only one and nothing else.

It is interesting how a Forum discussion can fluctuate between different topics before it comes back to the original subject!!!!!

[Ossian]

Hi Tania lots and lots of things "put people off" but I think as 2010 progresses and planning is undertaken for the next two or three years shows committees will have to think about the exhibitor;s perception of "judges and judging"

Recession is biting now, people are choosing which shows to go to and if they want to survive I beleive they must realise that they need to "attract" custom. I hear some dog owners say " it will only be the "rich" that can afford to show dogs" but in truth its us - the dog owning public who make up the biggest majority and if we dont turn out there wont be a show let along a judge who doesnt seem to follow protocol

[Carmel Murphy]

Well said Tania!! Forums like this are very healthy to air views regardless of which fence you sit on!! Or if you dont sit on any fence;o)) I would love to see more honesty in the show ring and everyone(novice or otherwise) get the same chance with their dogs!! Lets celebrate those excellent judges who do look at the dog and behave as judges should before and after judging!! Stop supporting those who dont!!

[Ossian]

and all da littul fairie folk will come skippin' down the hill an shower you with shamrocks

Where there's brass there's muck lass

[Lynne Murray Hogsflesh]

The more I read, the more this discussion causes me to have a wry smile...& seriously I really do not mean that in any sort of patronising way. It's just that since i came into this game nearly 30 years ago this sort of discussion has been going on, whether this be in the pages of the dog papers, round the ringside or in people's homes.

The truth.....we have some judges with integrity & some with no moral code...or as Ursula put it in another forum discussion, there are jerks in every walk of life, too true Ursula!

But criticising judges is a bit like fault judging....much easier to see a dog's particular failing than to look at the dog overall & put its faults into the whole context of its construction & movement.

By this I mean that it is all too easy to find 'reasons' why a judge has done what they have......
i.e.
"he/she only puts dogs up by their own stuff".....well if the judge likes the dogs they own & their progeny look similiar to them, what is wrong with that?

"he/she only puts up their mates"...well sometimes folk get to become mates in the first place because they have similiar taste in dogs, or bought stock from the same people, or have a similiar vision of the breed standard in their heads

"he/she only put that up because he/she has just used it at stud"....well if they used it, of course they must like it, why else would they pay hundreds of pounds otherwise?

Don't get me wrong, I am too long in the tooth to believe that 'political' judging doesn't go on...unfortunately it does & sometimes all too often, we have all seen it, to our disappointment.

However we do still see the absolute delight of a newcomer who wins well with their first dog...& who could fail to be pleased to see such a thing!

But guys it was never any different & where humans are involved, probably never will be.....we each have to observe, make our minds up & put our money where we think it will get us a fair crack of the whip.

I agree with Eva that there are numerous reasons for low entries but a biased judge is one of them & hopefully societies will take note of this...exhibitors after all, vote with their entries!