Home for Irish Setter Lovers Around the World
Old map of Ireland showing "Adams and Eves" of Irish setters posted
Setterfanciers interested in history may enjoy a card of old strains of red (and white) setters in Ireland on the website www.Iersesetter.com , home of the Foundation for original setters. Click the English flag and menubar White memories of times goneby. Of - Nederlands- Vlekjes uit een Ver Verleden.
This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.
The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).
Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.
The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).
Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.
Henk ten Klooster
This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.
The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).
Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.
The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).
Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.
Henk ten Klooster
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dee Rance on
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Nice one Leen.....:D))))
I was being slightly sarcastic, as to line-breeding, there are so many people that think that Line and In-breeding are two different things, with a geneticist, for a Daughter, line breeding is when it works and in breeding when it doesn't, although there are some that would disagree to that statement, no doubt. -
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Permalink Reply by Henk ten Klooster on
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"Palmerston was completely talentless in fields" wrote Gennadi.
There are umpteen versions of the story that Palmerston would have been drowned because his owner found him useless for the fields. Lets compare two versions of our best breed-historians. What do you think: legend or history?
W.C. Thompsons version is (The New Irish Setter, 1968): "He was bred by Cecil Moore, County Tyrone, about 1862, and his quality was not fully appreciated in his early years as his owner kept dogs chiefly for shooting and seldom exhibited at bench shows. When he was first shown at five years of age, he was offered for sale at five pounds. Since Palmerston was considered too delicate for the field even though he possesed a good nose and was diligent, Mr Moore gave orders to drown him because he did not want him used for breeding. T.M. Hilliard, according to the story, intercepted as the drowning was about to proceed and begged for the dog which was given to him providing that the setter would be kept for bench purposes only. "
Colonel Millners version in The Irish Setter (1924): "He was looked upon as a king of red setters, and was almost worshipped as a saint by the fancy, and like a true saint, legends appeared after his death; one of them being that his owner had decided to drown him, but on going to the river he chanced to meet a friend who induced him to spare the dog and give him to thim. This was said to have happened a short time before he became a show dog."
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You could accept both of these 'stories' as fact, who knows which one is correct, the main thing is, were would we be if he had been drown.......but he wasn't, so thank goodness for that, the Irish Setter we know today (show or field) mostly goes back to him, at least the 'top' winning animals do in the UK.
I have never been one for 'old' stories they are like 'Chinese Whispers' the story that starts at one end, could end up as something else at the other, although if enough people say the same thing at the beginning then perhaps their is some truth in it.
I wish I had all your reference books
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Fact or fantasy is a question here. Or both.
Fact is that Thompson (for more experts the best historian of the breed) is a factfinder not a very good storyteller. Very dry. Even when he tells about lion cubs being fed by an Irish setter he is still stylewise losing himself in factfinding. But this writing (note the drama in "the drowning was about to proceed") is the exception. Still the source provided is only "according to the story" (whose story???).
Than colonel/author Millner, he was almost a lifetime active in Irish setters since the 18seventies under more as secretary and co-founder of the Irish Red Setter Club, breeder, travelled a lot also to the USA in the national Irish Rifle Team, so probably knew Palmerston, his breeder and owner personally. He does not "kill" the story by denying it, but does state :"legends appeared after his death" (bold mine).
Do you think it is logical to wait after his death with these stories? For a dog that attracted even after his death so much attention (his head was mounted in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York) I'd say it would be much more logical that there would have been versions of the story already when he was alive. If only because his owner Hillard (whose son was manager of that hotel) bought himself a doggy goldmine see Thompson saying "he was credited by serving more bitches than ever possible.":-)))
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When you look at the number of times that he comes up in pedigrees then yes he probably has had ''more bitches than ever possible'' perhaps you could take a modern version 'Intrepid' he must have had the same results, but spread all over the world, and I think, don't quote me, that he still has semen frozen, so although he has been dead for a wee while now, he still can father litters, Palmerston couldn't do that!!!! :D))))
As for his head being stuffed.....yuk
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One story says the head was removed by a cleaner who was sick of that "dustnest".
Imagine some drinking whiskey and smoking cigars gathered under the mounted head of Palmerston in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Maybe they were smoking Garryowen tobacco (called after Palmerstons son known from Ulyssus, chosen as THE novel of the twentieth century).
The drowning scene fact of fantasy? An old pedigreecard of Palmerstons daugther Rose here (AKC 2615) tells she was exported in December 1877 to dr W.Jarvis, Claremont New Hampshire USA. By....Cecil Moore the breeder of Palmerston. Right, the person who according to the legend wanted to drown Palmerston. Quite some rebaptizing scene!
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A later pedigree-card shows Cecil Moore did not only breed from Palmerston producing under more Rose, but as well bred from his son Garryowen. So you first try to drown a dog, next breed to him. Hard to believe!!!
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A face on facts...
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Calculated this number for a famous present day Sh Ch with Breedmate 45.197.707 times Palmerston.
wrote Leen. Pheeeeeeeeeew. And "It was calculated over 47 generations and in that generation the number of unique ancestors = 140.737.488.355.326."
You must have done a huuuuuuuge job! Not easy to check and doublecheck. Some might reckon Palmerstons influence is therefore only 0,00003 %. So more info on your methods and sources very welcome. Next we might discuss the "third leg" of Irish setters, Muskerry. Data becomes more reliable in those times so if you can assist with this program that'll be great. That way we might find out more on our Adams and Eves than ever before!
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Your card made me study the Butler (Ormonde), La Touche etc .. families wrote Leen.
Thanks for info on your system.
French Park setters (said to be the first red strain) is worth a study in itself. It seems that family was what Lord Rossmore was for Irish red and white setters. Raymond O'Dwyer states in his book (pp 12) that "as late as 1953 the South of Ireland Gundog Club held trials on the estate at the invitation of Lord de Freyne".
The book Irish families written by Edward Mc Lysaght (1957, Dublin) tells that the ancestor of the family went from France to England with Wiliam the Conqueror in the person of Theophilus de French. Originally Norman, the name was de Freynes from Latin fraxinus - an ash tree, Irish Families reports.
Lord Rossmore played a big role for the resurrection of Irish red and white setters. Family-archives and paintings for description of the standard. Don't know of such research within red setter circles. Although there was a survey of a UK-breeder decades ago who thought red setters had joined The Conqueror.
Good to see the Hesterman-card (not mine) makes even now people enthusiastic to pick up trails and dive deeper. Your Butler family is said in old papers here to have bred ancestors of dr Stone's Dash a red with white so the one preceding Palmerston. Interesting that Jane-story - an Irish Setter Romance?
For the color question we will see where we end up, info is in early times provided but later missing. And ofcourse info is not always reliable - take for example legendary Wrestler he was "arrested" by both red setter and red and white setter enthusiasts as being one of them.
Anyway next generations will show a lot of all red until we arrive at restoration of the working Irish setter in Ireland. Interestingly, much broadening since WWII was connected with white: the English setter from red and white Irish setter lines cross in the USA, the shower of hail Hartsbourne Flame in the UK, the resurrection of the IRWS and restoration of the working Irish setter in Ireland.
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Muskerry's pedigree card from Hesterman-files.
According to Rasbridge the "third leg"of Irish setters (others Ch Palmerston & Ch Frisco).
Makes number four in thirty steps in a direct tail male line from Palmerston to nowadays top working red and white Pallas Green Harriet and red Urtis de la Chaume di Rigault.
His grandsire Ch Count was a brother of Ch Garryowen, still famous for his role in the novel of twentieth century, Ulyssus (written by James Joyce). His breeder and first owner Gibbon Hawkes is described by more experts as maybe the best breeder of Irish setters ever. Studying his way of breeding was recommended by more - from W.J. Rasbridge to latest Raymond O'Dwyer (chairman Irish Red Setter Club and author of newest breedbook).
American breedhistorian W.C. Thompson says of Gibbon Hawkes: "A wellknown breeder of Irish in the nineties was J. Gibbon Hawkes, who is said to have had 26 field trial winning setters in his kennel at one time. Several of them were sired by Muskerry who was classed by A.F. Hochwalt as "greatest producer of field trial Irish setters that ever lived."
The Muskerry line is in the USA more known as direct tail male line leading to under more Ch Milson O'Boy. In UK showlines he dives up via under more two imports from the USA to UK (Hartsbourne Senor of Shadowood and Erinhaven Dennis Muldoon), Leen stated above he was 2.462.945 times in a pedigree of a nowadays showwinner.
Muskerry is described as all red, but mind his son Wrestler (pedigree posted before) is claimed to be red and white (see Anna Redlichs Dogs of Ireland and website IRWSCGB).
Although he does have Palmerston twice in his pedigree, experts point at "preponderance" of other blood in his pedigree.
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