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Old map of Ireland showing "Adams and Eves" of Irish setters posted

Setterfanciers interested in history may enjoy a card of old strains of red (and white) setters in Ireland on the website www.Iersesetter.com , home of the Foundation for original setters. Click the English flag and menubar White memories of times goneby. Of - Nederlands- Vlekjes uit een Ver Verleden.

This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.

The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).

Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.

The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).

Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.

Henk ten Klooster

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That made intresting reading - thanks! Yes a connection is clear.

Degeneration of French Park Setters due to inbreeding is an intresting point in the history of Irish setters, it is the first time a noted strain is reported to go under because of that.

Another red strain is reported to have undergone the same (Ahascragh) in the 19th century preceding official dogsports. Still French Park Setters are important ancestors of our breed. So clearly not all were degenerated.

Intresting as well to read red and red and white for those of Lord Dillon. Colonel Whyte's grandfather had a kennel of red and white Irish setters end of 18th century.More sources tell even predominantly red strains had their own white and red or red and white or a lot of white products. And for the French Park added: shower of hails.
Alas this topic becomes unreadable since the reply function does not function ok. So here a happy ending for Palmerstons days. Thanks for all input and hopefully you've enjoyed your trip back to roots, the old map stays on www.Iersesetter.com

If anyone wants to trace all thirty generations from red Palmerston to red and white Harriet and red Urtis let me know, than we can split topics in readable sections.

For fanciers, here some white on red/red on white/red stuff as far as known very rare. It shows a pedigree of a red and white called Molly Bawn (born 1881) descended from.....Palmerston! .

Another pedigree shows a red and white on Frisco's lines: Killendaragh Rake (born 1895). Plus a red and white still able to get a first in a show held in 1894 in Strabane, Durrow. That is around a decade after "birth"of conformation standard for Irish red setters and Irish Red Setter Club.

Last but not least as ending the topic a picture of princess Wilhelmina's favourite Irish setter Swell, showing the blazes that was prominent in the lines of Palmerstons best known son Ch Garryowen. Enjoy!

The dog that I breed (many years ago) had the same, large star. He also had a much bigger white 'chest' it went 'from point of shoulder, to point of shoulder', and from the breast plate at the bottom of the throat, to rite under the dogs keel, I would love to have another like this, his coat was very dark rich chestnut which made the white show up even more.
Thanks Henk for the pictures and as usual for the 'good' debate.

Yes somewhere in Ulyssus, James Joyce makes the owner of Garryowen while drinking in a Dublin bar say about his dog: that bloody bastard. Owner Giltrap was co-founder of the Irish Red Setter Club.

Nuh, I don't think red setters are bastards because of that, Gennadi. And yes the Irish red and white setter and red setter certainly was one breed. I was not trying to prove that, but showing proof.

Not just because mrs Cuddy said so (founder of IRWS). Or because John Nash (Moanruad) wrote he never understood why the Irish RED Setter Club was formed when there were still that many terrific red and whites around.

For your interest the first red setter painted (taken from A Survey of Early Setters - Gilbert Leighton-Boyce) in 1634 by Van Dyck under.

Last but not least the field trial winner Lord Decider, one of the main ancestors of both IRWS and IRS (working) of the 19twenties above. Change places and you have history of working IRS in a nutshell.

Decider entrered IRS in the 19sixties via under more Waydown Sandy thats a few decades after the Irish Irish red and white setter club was formed.

And of course feel free to start an own topic on this, I want to end this because it becomes unreadable. If you split it into sections of the thirty generations male line, it still has some structure.

COI has relevance too, although the average of that in IRWS is far higher than IRS, a lot of big problems are missing in them. Reason??? Could it be we can learn something from pure facts?
The buffet dog is showing all the signs of being a typical Irish ie trying to steal the food!!!:o)))
The Van Dyck well as you say which came first, that dog is so much like the modern day Irish 'Red' Setter. It could be a 'one off' but its too much like 'our' modern day setters. Whatever the pictures are great...:0)))

Clearing up old archives used for this topic, one pedigree-card of all those "'Palmerstondaysdogs" dropped spontaneously on the floor. I picked it up and read White Star. Surprise!

This means an Irish setter called White Star, main actor in Marty Crisps "White Star, a dog on the Titanic" really existed. For those who don't know the book (published 2004) or its author, she's inspired by the books of Jim Kjelgaard (Big Red, Outlaw Red, Irish Red).

In a nutshell (back of book): "The year is 1912, and young Sam Harris is travelling across the ocean on the Titanic. When Sam discovers that there are dogs on board, he volunteers to help out in the kennel -and meets Star, a smart and energetic Irish setter. Sam and Star become fast friends...but then disaster strikes. As the Titanic meets its doom, the boy and dog are forced to rely on each other like never before."

As you see real White Star on the pedigree-card is a son of....Ch Garryowen, main dog actor in the novel of last century, written by James Joyce. Yes phantasy White Star has lots of white under more a white star on breast.

Thanks for participators in this topic, more a timemachine than debate. This timemachine aspect is exactly what I like thats why a focus on white on red: bubbling under, diving up, vanishing and return on top of stage, stars in the night story.

Hopefully this topic will contribute towards another attitude to white on red - the seek and destroy of white on red periods in our breed marks black pages in the history of the Irish setter. We can still learn a lot from history.




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