I get the impression that some here think the perfect Irish setter is either kennel specific/country specific/inbred or outbred specific/beauty versus function specific/or just some nebulous specific. If it is not out of an English pure kennel, then somehow it has been contaminated. If it has been bred to a US Irish setter - most of which go back to English kennels- then somehow AKC has influenced and contaminated their line. If it has too much or too little coat-straight or wavy, what to do or apologize for? So what do most of you look for when breeding and how open is your mind to other kennels/other types/other countries and types when you consider breeding? Are most here willing to go out of the box and take a chance or stay with what they think they know and continue on as they always have?
I googled, called my vet and even called UC Davis to find out about a calcium deficiency found only in the Afghan Hound. Would you mind at least being a little more specific about the problem and name it? I am curious and ran into dead ends with the above mentioned resources . As a medical person, I am curious.
As this discussion has taken the road to discuss the "Afghan" traits, rumours and inuendo, I thought I would post up an article which was published in a magazine many years ago, for your information. I found the 1998 edition of the "Irish Times" this week and have just received permission to post the article to this discussion.
Interestingly at a time after this article was published, a Labrador breeder (and Group judge) and I were having a discussion about this and we were very discounting of it and were really wondering whether anyone would ever be immoral enough to do this. We were enjoying watching the General Special judging at the time. Group 3 was a USA Type Irish Setter; Group 4 was an Afghan Hound. The judge pulled the 2 breeds out to run the ring together as he made his final decision. We both stopped in horror as we saw the two dogs run in perfect gait and structure. This is a memory that lives on........ I hope it never happened, but this day, it was very frightening to watch.
Cheryl, there was a lot of discussion about possible afghan crosses on some setter lists in the late nineties, the very early days of internet discussion lists. Quite a number of photos were produced of irish Setters that had characteristics of afghans, particularly the tails, the coat, the heads, and the hindquarters. but they all seem to have disappeared and one cannot find them anywhere now. The working-setter list , of which Henk was a member , was particularly outspoken and this list produced a lot of photos. The archive of posts is still available to trawl through,although the attachments are gone
I remember an article in the UK Dog World by Peggy Grayson reporting on the World Show in Finland in 1998, making fun (in her restrained way) of the winning Irish Setter, American bred . There was no doubt she thought this dog was part Afghan, and the photo with the article showed a bizarre dog who looked more Afghan than setter
But the dogs that looked like Afghans seemed to disappear again quite quickly, so did any photos. People are now more astute about the internet - if you can find one of the old photos of setters that look like afghans, and say that they looked like afghans,you are likely nowaday to be threatened with lawyers ! And warnings about infringement of copyright regarding photos. It seems like an episode in setter history that many people would rather forget :))
Just getting back to the original question it will be very interesting to see how the Uk dog Pure Geniouse of Clonagera goes in the Us. I reckon he has the potential to improve on some of the qualities. I also reckon that we in Australia could benefit from a quality dog or seamen from Uk or Europe. Unfortunately my wife and I have agreed not to breed because she wouldn't let any pups go. What comes in our yard stays in our yard. Anyhow have a good weekend and if your showing remember that the best dogs always goes home with you
Hi All Again
With the expertise of the frozen seamen that we know have all serious breeders have the world at their door. This helps us here in Aust as our quarantine laws even though not as tough as they used to be. It also gives you access to the best dogs and not importing an inferior specimen.
The discussion here reminds me of an art class that I took. We started out with an understanding of color-that there were 3 primary colors=red, blue and yellow and all others a combination of these. White was the full spectrum and black the absence of any color. Then we were given a blank canvas. Some preferred to use only blue or yellow . Some realized that by combining these two you could get green and it was a pleasant color too. Some never learned how to combine colors and stayed with the three primary. I think you can see my analogy, so I won't continue.
And the get of Ch. Pure Geniuse by Clonagerra here in the US are doing quite well. I posted a pic of one of his daughters out of an Estrella bitch for you to see. He is a very nice specimen.
John........that is a very nice photo of a Pure Geniuse daughter. She looks to be well balanced and not exaggerated in any way. Good forehand. Looking forward to the photo of Amaranthus.
Pure Geniuse is himself closely bred with just the one outcross along the tail female line from his paternal grandsire ShCh Starchelle Chicago Bear (Crufts BIS Winner 1995). Presumably he is providing valuable outcross lines for American breeders.
Do Irish Setter breeders in the US keep within their own lines, only going out to bring in new blood or do they mainly outcross. What is the philosophy behind breeding IS in the US?
Now I really do like Cassie, beautiful balanced bitch and after I had done some research on the pedigrees would be very tempted with that line. So after looking at what I already have here I could see she may have several attributes that could be of benefit to me so I would be prepared to do something a little different. Such a shame she is so far away