Quel avenir pour le setter irlandais en France ?

[Monique VIRY]

Nouvelles directives de jugement données par le Red Club en France.
Lors de l'assemblée générale du Red Club, le 28 juillet 2007, le comité nous a indiqué les nouvelles directives de jugement :
Taille idéale pour obtenir le CACS : 56 à 60 cm pour les femelles et 59 à 64 cm pour les mâles.
Ces tailles ont été fixées car, d'après le comité, les grands chiens ne savent pas chasser.
Pour obtenir le CAC en exposition il faut avoir 7 caractères jugés excellents ( tête, avant main, corps, arrière main, ensemble, robe et démarche ) et un chien dans la taille idéale.
Ceci nous a été indiqué le samedi avec application à partir du lendemain lors de la Nationale d'Elevage.
Que pouvons nous faire, quel est l'avenir du setter irlandais en France ?
Je remercie Susan qui s'est proposée pour la traduction.

[Susan Stone]

Translation:

New rules for judging have been given out by the Red Club of France.
On the occasion of the annual general meeting on July 28th the committee of the Red Club informed us of new directives for judging:
Ideal size for the CACS (the french national equivalent of CC) to be granted: 56 - 60cm for bitches and 59 - 64cm for males. These sizes have been decided on as - according to the committee - large dogs don't know how to hunt. To win the CAC at a show the dog must be graded excellent in seven characteristics (head, front assembly, body, hinquarters, general impression, coat, movement) and be within the ideal size.
These directives were given on saturday and put into action the next day at the National IS Breed Show.

What can we do, what is the future for the Irish Setter in France?

[Susan Stone]

I suggested to Monique that she transfer this thread started by Cécilia from the 'Frenchy' Group Forum to the main site, being of interest and 'food for thought' for all members.
Monique also mentioned that in the instruction manual (?) given to judges there is mention that dogs from excellent working lines were often of a lighter colour and that this should not refrain the judge from giving theses dogs the CAC... Monique questions if the judge therefore need know the dog's kennel name before deciding if he could award the CAC.

Personally I am surprised that certain breed clubs apply their own rules despite their country being member of the FCI. Surely it is the FCI standard that should be adhered to. To my mind, this also makes the judge look ridiculous: after training for many years and gaining experience, you end up being TOLD by the committeee of a breed club how you are to judge... what happens if the judge does not adhere to these rule?

petite traduction: 1) la question de la couleur des chiens de ligne travail
2) la question des juges qui ont fait une longue éducation pour devenir juge de race est qui ont beaucoup d'éxpérience: maintenant c'est le comité qui leur dit, comment il doivent juger... qu'est-ce qui se passe s'ils ne suivent pas les directives?

[Carmel Murphy]

I agree! What is the point of the FCI breed standards from country of origin if everyone just does their own thing anyway? We will end up with, for example, the French Red Setter, the American Red Setter or the English Red Setter or whatever country decides to go their own direction!!!! Look what happened to the English Cocker Spaniel many years ago in the US, now two different breeds!!

[Susan Stone]

For members not into the metric measurements:
FCI/Irish standard gives a maximum size of 67cm (26.5 inches) for dogs and 62cm (24.5 inches) for bitches.

[Mary S.]

The size is a bit small - I think all AKC setters must be 24 inches at front shoulder (61 cm) which would make the French bitches slightly undersized (though the size of my setters). The variance of only 4 cm for what is acceptable struck me as a bit of a tight fit. Perhaps the suggestion of a single international standard might be best.

I had a good laugh over "les grands chiens ne savent pas chasser" - sad but true. One of the four Irish's we have owned was a large, show setter. She was a sweetheart, as they all are, but she was afraid of her own shadow, and did not have as good an instinct as our first or these two. She was raised by our second dog (and the only dog not an Irish) - a golden retriever - the retriever got cancer at 8 (which is why we never got another one) - when she was dying, she would get out of the yard and get lost, but our show dog would fetch her and bring her back on command. So she had SOME hunting instinct in her. But the three that were field bred (that's the name we used for our first, who it appears was a red setter; the current two are formally classed as red setters) followed orders better (or disobeyed orders less frequently). All four pointed well. The two we have now love to stalk birds Veeerrrrrrryyyyy slllllooooowwwwwwwlllyyyyy.
Mary

[Laura Kolbach]

hehe, i am proud of myself, i understood the french text - and after the last sentence i realized that there is a translation available :-)
anyway. this is simply crazy!!!!!!!!! i am sure that there are not many irish in europe that fullfill these size criteria. surely it was not meant to promote the show irish but the hunting/working population...
i have seen some of the hunting type setters on the austrian club show this summer. i am sure they do a fantastic job in the field but...
(by the way, the FCI did not apply the irish rules either that proposed the size to be changed during several years (until 2012 if i remember correctly), stating that no dog should be set back during the transformation time because of the size.)

[Monique VIRY]

Bravo Laura,
Moi c'est pareil je comprends mais je ne sais pas répondre en anglais.
Est tu sûre des directives de la FCI concernant la taille ?
Moi je pense qu'on ne doit pas produire des chiens trop grands car on court le risque de dépasser la taille maximale, mais tant qu'on est dans le standart, c'est OK.
Comment cela se passe dans les autres pays ? Les chiens sont ils toisés à chaque expo ? Un chien trop grand est il éliminé ou jugé dans son ensemble ?

[Susan Stone]

translation of main points:
Are you sure about the FCI concerning size?
Personally I think one should not breed dogs that are too big so as not to risk going above the maximum size, but as long as it is within the standard it's ok.
What happens in other countries? Are the dogs measured at every show? Is a tall dog disqualified or is the entire dog taken in consideration?

[Susan Stone]

Monique,
Laura dit que le nouveau standard FCI n'est pas le même comme prévu par les irlandais. Sur le site du Irish Kennel Club on trouve le standard du setter irlandais avec un délai d'une dixaine d'années pour arriver à la taille désirée. La FCI (on se demande qui était responsable...) n'a pas inclus cette proposition des irlandais. Pourquoi pas?

english: on the Irish Kennel Club site the standard for the Irish Setter gives a transitional period of time to reach the new measurements. The FCI did not include this transitional period. Why not?

[Monique VIRY]

Merci Susan, j'avais mal compris les propos de Laura.
Comment se passent les jugements chez toi en Suisse ?
Et dans tous les autres pays ?

[Susan Stone]

Monique, chez nous en Suisse le chien n'est que rarement toisé, mais c'est le juge qui décide. Une juge allemande a pénalisé un setter irlandais male pour sa taille, mais sans le mesurer... il avait 68cm!!! Celui-ci gagne beaucoup parcequ'il est trés harmonieux dans sans ensemble.
En Suisse chaque chien est toisé lors de la sélection d'élevage, la taille est noter mais un chien trop grand ou trop petit de risque guère ne pas atteindre l'apte à l'élevage.

Monique, here in Switzerland dogs a rarely measured, only if the judge wishes to do so. A german judge once penalised a dog for being too tall but did not measure him... this dog measured 68cm and has done a lot of winning as he is very balanced.
Here all dogs are measured when they are assessed for breeding (separate from shows). But a dog a bit above or below standard size is not disqualified.

[Laura Kolbach]

using which standard?? the irish, the UK, the FCI, the US?
what if your dog is an excellent specimen of the breed but slightly tall (or small but i don't think that happens to often)? would you step back from breeding and let all the good things carried by the dog disappear? where is the limit? what is too tall? what if all the brothers/sisters/parents/etc are normal size, only the one you want to breed is too big? most likely a normal size would be inherited by the pups.
in my opinion a balanced, correct dog is worthier than a less correct dog who's maybe only advantage is that he/she small. but please correct me if i am wrong.
in the past weeks i have seen many judge aspirants in the rings (at home and abroad, one of them questioning my danka's winning (2 times). the "real" judges explained to him that she might be a big lady but has more qualities than others that were optimal sized for the standard. of course danka is not going to win with those judges who are size-focused in first-hand. but most of the times i will only know this later on, after the show :-) so we keep on showing!
the dogs are not measured here in this part of europe, or at least, i haven't seen it with irish setters yet. i haven't heard of disqualification either because of size. in fact, lots of allrounder judges like the bigger dogs more as they are more flashy and showy in the big ring. this in turn leads to the question: are the shows still fulfilling the roles they were supposed to in the past?