Black in coat on red setters

[Lena]

In my current litter, I have one boy with two black spots in his coat, just above the croup and going down his left side (see pictures).

Having asked around I have heard of at least six other combinations where this has occured and I have also had a particular dog's name mentioned in connection with this. This dog lived in the UK 35-40 years ago ... and yes, I have checked and the combinations (including mine) I have heard of are all doubled (at least) on this dog.
However, in my database I have a total of 2798 litters (= 18010 dogs) that are doubled on him, so I don't know if you this is something you can deduct anything from - I mean it would be more unlikely that the combinations I was checking would NOT have him than that they would!!!

Considering the amount of dogs, avoiding doubling on this dog would also be totally impossible (unless you use non-European lines), and in all my previous litters I have done so, just as a majority of other breeders in Sweden, the UK and the rest of Europe, so I am only wondering if black pops up more than is known in general, or is it so highly uncommon and rare as it seems?

Would be interesting to have any info you might be able to provide.

Of course, I am not looking to "blame" any particular dog, this is just pure interest - although the first thing I heard was that the black must come from the American lines in these puppies' pedigree, which I definitely do not believe having heard about other combinations.

Looking forward to your comments!

All the best from a now quite cold Sweden.
/Lena

[ursula wilby]

Seeing that the dog you are talking about is so far back in time, I dont think it is in any way bad to actually mentioning his name.
I have certainly never seen anything like this.
Ursula
(all the best from the southern coast of Sweden = 12 degrees and tons of flowers still out! :-))

[Carmel Murphy]

I have not come across any setters with black, but I would only have seen a small number of litters, but I have not heard about it either!! From a very warm Ireland(18degrees yesterday!!)

[ursula wilby]

18 degrees? How totally UNFAIR Carmel!
But the sun is shining at the moment and thats a step in the right direction...

[Laura Kolbach]

Lena, this is very interesting, I have never seen something like this!
Also curious about the dog's name you are talking about, maybe you can mail it to me? :)

Do you think this will disappear from the coat or stay? I think the standard does not allow black traces :-(

from a for-me-cold-for-swedish-warm-hungary (15 degrees)

[Lena]

I agree with Ursula - it would probably be ok to mention the dog's name ... but I will not at present, mostly for two reasons - one that I don't really have any facts to support it and perhaps mainly because I am curious to see if anyone mentions the same name!!! So if anyone have any suggestions - please don't be shy! :)
Anyway this dog was not used himself a lot - I have only ten children registered that has gone on in breeding, but since he is behind some "big" stud dogs (and bitches too of course), for example Kerryfair Night Fever, he is now in many lines.

The spots will stay, I am sure, since they have so far grown in size with him. First I thought maybe if they stayed as small as when he was born the top coat would cover them, but this will not be the case.
So he will be a loved pet that can not be shown but otherwise be a perfectly normal dog!

/Lena

[ursula wilby]

I am also convinced that the spots will stay.

[Alenka Pokorn]

Although I have not seen it in a few years black spots popped up from time to time here in Slovenia. I know of at least 3 combinations, all about 10 years ago. Black ranged from only few hairs to considerable spots. None of these dogs have been bred from of course, some of the littermates were, but as far as I know it has not popped up since. One of these was repeat mating and out of 19 pups only one had a black spot. Actually this very dog has been shown as a Junior and has done really well, none of the judges ever noticed the black even though it was more than 5 cm in diameter and just on the croup???? Lena if you want to know exactly what combinations I can mail you privately.

There was a well known Champion bitch in Hungary with black on her head - just some hairs which were pulled out by the owner for shows.

But let's not forget the fully blacks. I know of at least 1 born out of Wendover imports, similar lines that can be found in Sweden. And then of course there is Mrs Weselly in Austria who was breeding blacks for quite a few years under De Villaflores prefix. She had special permition to try breeding a new breed, but I think she gave up after some years. I remember her telling me how she came to the vet once with her Cocker Spaniel and there was a man with a litter of Irish (just born) who wanted them all put down because there were a couple of blacks in the litter. She took the litter home, raised them and kept a black male. She then bought a bitch and bred her to this male which produced Chamaco de Villaflores. He was a handsome dog, regularly shown (judges did not know what to do with him) - born 1985 or 1986. I'll try to dig up a photo of his at home. She later bought a bitch in Hungary that was bred to Chamaco resulting in some red and some black puppies. A red bitch and dog from this litter have been regularly shown and quite succesful (that was in the early 90's).

These are the cases I am familiar with. I have heard from time to time of others, but can't confirm it. You must remember that there was often mention of black hairs on reds when dog shows started. Obviously it was a problem at the time or it would not be mentioned in the standard.

Alenka

[Lena]

Thanks Alenka, I would very much like to know the combinations and what dogs from the litters where it has occured has been bred from. I do know one litter where there was a puppy with black - a sister was bred from and also produced one puppy with black. Not really that surprising, but if the inheritence would be very strong I think we would see more of these cases - that's why I'm interested in knowing how common it really is.

I think it's odd that judges would accept an irish red setter with black in the ring - especially since the standard really mentions it as not allowed. Are you saying that this black dog (completely black even?) was actually winning?

Would be most interesting to see photos - both of totally black ones or any with spots.
Thanks! /Lena

[Alenka Pokorn]

Well most judges sent Chamaco out without qualification, but Mrs Wesely kept bringing him out. First time I saw him was at the World show in Vienna in 1986 (I remember because it was just after Chernobil dissaster and we had our very first Irish Setter litter a few weeks old at home).
The male with black on the croup had lots of coat (wavy) and the lady had hairspray. She would comb the hair over the black, spray it and as our judges are not very "hands on" he has won several 1st and 2nd prizes as a Junior. But the spot actually kept growing, so she stopped showing him. My aunt had his brother, a very handsome boy, but never shown.
I will mail you the combinations privately. Have to check my records which of the litter have been bred from or shown.
Alenka

[Laura Kolbach]

it just came to my mind that there was a totally black "irish setter" in the city park near my university back then. he was beautiful, black all over, shiny coat, perfect irish setter conformation. first i thought it was a flat coated retriever but the owner explained that he was an irish setter. i doubted this back then but i learned in the meantime that it is possible.

[ursula wilby]

Well that black setter need not have been a black "irish" but rather a "setter". I had an irish setter puppy-buyer that also owned a (pure-bred) english setter. These two mated (with the help of children opening doors) and this resulted in a litter of 14 I think.
Well there was some culling done (yes, Im not the only nasty one...:-)) but about half the litter was black and the other half red. A bit more white than on a normal irish, but some actually had very little and certainly nothing even remotely like their english setter father.
Once grown, the red puppies were rather faded in colour compared to their mother, and the black ones jet-black. I would not be surprised if not some of these mixed-dog owners called theirs "irish" setters.

I also once had a buyer who told me about his previous dogs (I always ask).
He had started out with an irish setter and then had a flat-coated retriever, now he wanted a setter again.
Not until he had actually bought the dog from me and we had spoken loads of times did he explain that the flat-coated retriever was a daughter of his irish setter?!
How ever much I tried to explain that an irish setter could not give birth to a flat-coated-retriever, he just did not get it.
As far as he was concerned THAT was what it was.
In the end I just gave up...(hey that's not like me?!)
As it happens this was a well-educated man, but NOT in the field of genetics. :-))

[Laura Kolbach]

also, i would be interested in the name of the black haired hungarian champion bitch :) maybe you can mail it privately if you don't want to write it here.