Black in coat on red setters

[Lena]

In my current litter, I have one boy with two black spots in his coat, just above the croup and going down his left side (see pictures).

Having asked around I have heard of at least six other combinations where this has occured and I have also had a particular dog's name mentioned in connection with this. This dog lived in the UK 35-40 years ago ... and yes, I have checked and the combinations (including mine) I have heard of are all doubled (at least) on this dog.
However, in my database I have a total of 2798 litters (= 18010 dogs) that are doubled on him, so I don't know if you this is something you can deduct anything from - I mean it would be more unlikely that the combinations I was checking would NOT have him than that they would!!!

Considering the amount of dogs, avoiding doubling on this dog would also be totally impossible (unless you use non-European lines), and in all my previous litters I have done so, just as a majority of other breeders in Sweden, the UK and the rest of Europe, so I am only wondering if black pops up more than is known in general, or is it so highly uncommon and rare as it seems?

Would be interesting to have any info you might be able to provide.

Of course, I am not looking to "blame" any particular dog, this is just pure interest - although the first thing I heard was that the black must come from the American lines in these puppies' pedigree, which I definitely do not believe having heard about other combinations.

Looking forward to your comments!

All the best from a now quite cold Sweden.
/Lena

[Mary S.]

FWIW, I was taught years ago when we got our first Irish setter (1976) that if there is any black in one of the dogs, then the litter will be all black. In fact, it was said that you could tell whether somebody had mixed in other dogs because the first litter would be all black.

Now that's probably an old wive's tale (although I have to admit the results I have seen of Irish setter + lab have turned out all black) - but that might explain the rule that AKC setters cannot have any black on them at all.

Mary

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

Hej Lena!
In my first litter I had one pup whit a black spot, but not that much. But still a black spot and now three years ago it is still there.

Regards/Kristina