Why do Australian breeders sell litters not for show or breeding LIMITED REGISTER

[ricky young]

Why ? Beautifully bred litters not available for show or breeding. No wonder our exhibtors numbers have dropped dramatically. I judge a breeder by what other people do in the ring. They should be encouraging and helping these people not shunning them away.

Cheers Ricky Young

[Marina Scott]

Ricky, yes I did! I was on uni holidays & did the shows with my dad. The bitch I showed Ch Derrylare Divine is behind everything I have today. Those were the days...many years & 3 children later I'm still doing it!!!
I wouldn't say no to you either if I had something that was good enough ...
BTW there's a gorgeous bitch that I bred in QLD owned by Lyn &Grant Atkinson. You may have seen her. They don't get to a lot of shows but I'm so happy that they have her. She's possibly better than the bitch I kept but that's fine...they waited for a couple of years to get a daughter of my Keely and they are SO happy with her...and when she had her first litter they sent me a bitch puppy. Could not have been better!

Marina

[Melinda Auld]

Hi Ricky

Are you talking about selling to "pet owners" or to potential or existing breeders/showies?

If breeders/showies, then I agree that it is selfish and rather short-sighted to hide your lines away. It does nothing for the breed, and ends up polarising "types" even further. As it is, Irish in Australia in some cases look so different from each other they might as well be different breeds.

If to the general pet-owning Australian public, then I will play devil's advocate a moment and suggest that there is a perception (whether it is true or not!) amongst breeders that if you sell animals on the main register to Joe Bloggs, he will simply use them as breeding factories. Bitches mated to whatever dog the neighbour happens to own, every season, and dogs used at stud to any breed and at huge prices (because of the dog's quality and pedigree). There is ample evidence - certainly in other breeds - to prove that this is indeed the case. Look at Staffies, as a case in point.

The designer dog craze is well and truly thriving in Australia. I myself had an experience with someone phoning me to ask if I had any bitches to mate to their Great Dane!! They wanted to be the first to breed a Great Red Dane... I can imagine how such a thing could certainly make long-time breeders, who have sunk thousands of dollars and countless hours of love and dedication into their lines want to protect them whatever way they can. You can also be almost guaranteed that the public won't be health-testing their dogs, or researching pedigrees, or checking in-breeding COIs etc to protect the Breed itself. I have heard plenty of people say that this is something show people do - they just want to breed their bitch "so the kid can see puppies being born" (or insert any other reason here that covers up the fact that they think it's a good money-maker).

IMHO, it's a bit pointless to sell on limited register to a public who doesn't know the difference, and who aren't ANKC members and who frankly don't care whether their dog is on the main or limited if they want to breed them anyway.

I also think, however, that breeders who are members are obligated to do the best they can by their puppies, as per the Code of Ethics, and if this means selling them on the limited register to protect them from being bred into the ground, then this is what they should be doing.

Registered breeders are the guardians of the breed, in Australia. Perhaps we need to be more trusting of general puppy buyers - perhaps not.

Anyway, just wanted to put another spin on it!

ETA: I do agree that breeders should certainly be more welcoming of people who are keen to get into showing. When I first tried to get an Irish, no one replied to my emails. Perhaps they thought I wasn't genuine. Perhaps they thought I wouldn't keep up with it. Perhaps they had been burned before and had decided to trust no one new at all. Who knows. On the receiving end, it felt more like snobbery and rudeness, especially when I had been honest and up-front in all my communications. Luckily for me, I found a breeder who trusted me, and I became the very proud owner of a lovely Irish. (I would also like to add that Marina Scott, who posted above me here, was the only other breeder who bothered to reply to me - thanks Marina!!)

No doubt many breeders have been burned by people in the past. But they shouldn't then use that as an excuse to treat all newcomers like the plague. This seems to be the general attitude, and it is a crying shame. Many people would be keen to try showing - and if they don't like it, is it really a crime? Form warm relationships with your puppy buyers, instead of suspecting them, and you don't have to lose dogs to your breeding programmes.

Again, however, just my opinion...

[ricky young]

Hi All especially Marina and Melinda
Well said Marina I wish that was the opinion of some of our breeders because its the only way we can encourage the right people into our breed which will benefit the breed.Our numbers have dropped off because of the arogant ways of some.We are all not bought up in doggy homes,some of us just love them and love to show ,obedience and agility and titleing them is just a small reward on the way It is simple to have new pup owners who just want a pet to be contracted to have them spayed or for those who say they will show but don't to have them spayed if they dont follow a certain criteria or for those who do and the pup falls short of show quality to be spayed re-homed and replaced.But most of all not bred without consent of breeder.Designer dog are are a curse and when my workmates talk about them I shoot them down with facts on how all our registers and health checks that a good breeder has to go through before they breed.
If I had known that one of those litters was available I would have been jumping up and down for a pup but that will not happen now. Its as though none have been deemed not show quality. (strange)
Cheers Rick

[Marina Scott]

Ricky, yes I did do that NSW circuit...it was me! I was on uni holidays & did the shows with my dad. The bitch I showed Ch Derrylare Divine is behind everything I have today. Those were the days...many years & 3 children later I'm still doing it!!!
I wouldn't say no to you either if I had something that was good enough ...
BTW there's a gorgeous bitch that I bred in QLD owned by Lyn &Grant Atkinson. You may have seen her. They don't get to a lot of shows but I'm so happy that they have her. She's possibly better than the bitch I kept but that's fine...they waited for a couple of years to get a daughter of my Keely and they are SO happy with her...and when she had her first litter they sent me a bitch puppy. Could not have been better!

Marina

[eva ciechonska]

Please don't think of breeders as gods, custodians of the breed etc. There are many who overbreed their bitches, have litter after litter after litter, wheel and deal...............just look on the Breed websites and read the adverts. Interestingly they are the breeders who endorse their pedigrees and puppy registrations...........speaks volumes.
Please don't think of people who breed Designer Dogs as pet people. They are opportunists who, more often then not, are experienced puppy farmers who have smelled a potential money market and are out for a fast buck. We have all had contact with this kind of person and refused them a puppy.
Equally, please don't patronise the pet owners. They love their dogs and keep them for life. You can see that from all the comments on this site. Many current breeders/exhibitors started as pet owners, tried their hand at showing and became hooked......I did.
It is hard work vetting prospective puppy owners, providing an aftercare service, making follow-up calls and keeping in contact but, ultimately, it is extremely rewarding for both breeder and pet owner and you make many new friends. If your pet owner then decides to take that step into exhibiting and becomes successful then that must be the greatest reward for all your hard work and it proves that you can breed more than just one high flying show puppy who wins in your hands or the hands of another well known exhibitor...........we must all keep an open mind and embrace the bigger picture.
Can I ask whether puppies on the Limited Register go for less money.

[Melinda Auld]

I believe it is up to individual breeders, Eva - though I think it is recommended that they not be?? (Will have to check on that one.)

I agree with your comments, btw. My post was not necessarily my own opinion - just trying to throw another perspective into the fray ;-)

Like you, I was a pet owner who became interested in showing (but who was always interested in Irish Setters). Luckily, I was able to purchase my first Irish as a show animal, but I owned other another breed before then - purely as pets. I am very lucky that Fionn's breeder was willing to sell to a rank newbie - it is not done here very often at all, or so I now know. The consensus seems to be don't bother - it's not worth it, and newbies will soon get tired of showing once they realise how much work it is etc...I have seen the same comments time and time again, and frankly, it often seems to be said more to give people a way to say, "I told you so," when it doesn't work out later on. I notice those same people are silent when people stick with it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Oh, and of course if you do stick with it, you're automatically a whinging newbie...

It is a shame that everyone is tarred with the same negative brush - although I don't doubt many breeders have sold main registered puppies to newbies who swore they would show, only to see them give up after a few months.

It's a bit silly, really. They don't want to sell to newbies in case they give up on showing. But if they sell them on limited register, they're not show dogs anyway (or even breeding dogs).

[eva ciechonska]

It would really annoy me if I were a new IS owner to be told what I could or couldn't do with my puppy, especially after I had parted with my hard earned cash. Maybe when I started people were more trusting or perhaps more discerning
There are always puppies of show potential in a litter. No one can predict how they will turn out as puppies unless they have a crystal ball. "Potential" is the best you can hope for. To sell a whole litter as not of show quality, apart from the previous suggestions, begs the question 'why have the litter in the first place'? Why breed puppies that are not good enough? Of course the best laid plans can go wrong but generally, an experienced breeder should be able to make a decent decision on which dog to put to which bitch in order to produce a potential show litter..
Incidentally, does it matter whether a new owner gives up on showing as long as they can provide a loving and permanent home for their pup. That is more than priceless.
Could someone please tell me whether Limited Register puppies are sold at the same price.

[ricky young]

Hi Eva
We in Australia have a problem with these designer dog breeders who don't have any morals and only see the $ signs. Some will do anything to get their grubby hands on some breeds especially poodles. But to shut out potential exhibitors and other exhibitors is not in my opinion fair. Would it be fair to ask for any expressions of interest when it is decided who a bitch is to be mated with. We have been in contact with one of Australia's most reputable breeders and have been waiting for what seems to be an eternity.
You in England have so many righteous good breeders in such a small area. You are so lucky over there, I'm jealous.
I believe our breeders are so afraid of one of their dogs getting into the wrong hands and people will think they also have no morals or scruples and its harder in Australia because is not the land of dog lovers like UK. Victoria which is much the same size as England probably has no more than a dozen active breeders. Victoria is the capital of our breeding. Other states are doing less.
Cheers

[eva ciechonska]

Ricky, we have the same problem with designer dog breeders. These dogs are going for anything between £800-£1200. We also are aware of the problems but maybe they aren't on your scale.........I don't know. However, there are also many loving pet owners and me mustn't tar these people with the same brush. We just need to be vigilant, even to the point of personally vetting homes if we have to. I only breed to keep so have a litter every 2 years. Maybe it is easy for me to say because I only have to deal with 10 prospective homes. I can appreciate if you breed a lot the simple way out is to endorse your registrations, but that doesn't help you or Melinda. It is a great shame and I don't know where you go from here.
I am surprised that there hasn't been much of a response from Australian breeders to your questions. All we can do in the UK is to speculate on your situation.
I still ask how much puppies on the Limited Register go for. Is it for a reduced price?

[Carmel Stringfellow]

Hi Eva,
I don't think the puppies on a Limited Register go for a reduced price. The one time I looked into it I had to have the puppy buyers sign a form agreeing to the pup being put on there. To me it seems a bit of a waste of time as I encourage my puppy buyers not to desex their dogs because of the damage it does to the coat. A fair percentage of them still do however. Breeders of other breeds get buyers to sign agreements saying they will desex at a certain age but I can't see how those agreements would hold up in court. Early desexing of pups at 8/10 weeks of age is becoming popular. Probably in direct response to the designer dog craze. I would say the cost of this would be passed onto the puppy buyer.
Carmel

[Melinda Auld]

Hi Carmel

You're right - I'm pretty sure that desexing agreements have no legal standing. I've heard of plenty of people desexing their pups at 8 weeks of age, too - which frankly, I think is crazy! Some people also offer a refund to cover the cost of sterilisation at 6 months if the owners show proof of desexing.

Eva, I think I said in my post that the cost of puppies (main or limited) is up to the individual breeder. There is no rule - though maybe a guideline from the ANKC in the Code of Ethics (which I am not sure of and will have to check). Some will sell at two different prices - some don't.

I believe there is a perception here amongst the public that papered and main registered dogs sell for more. Ridiculous, really, given the prices of puppies in pet shops - some selling for more than AUD1000 for a cross-bred "designer dog." As I said before, though - to the general public, who mostly don't care whether the dog is registered on the main or limited register, a breeder telling them their new pup is on the limited register makes no difference. They still get official papers from the ANKC, and for many, they are happy with that.

There is also still a perception here that only show people bother with all that "stuff" and that if you want to bang two dogs together and call yourself a breeder, you can. I constantly meet people who have got their dog from a "breeder" - who after a quick conversation is easily deduced to be Mrs so-and-so from down the road with a lovely pug cross and the neighbour's labrador... Or better yet, the ones who swear black and blue they have a purebred dog - because one parent was a pure-bred (byb) Goldie and the other was a poodle.

The overwhelming majority of dogs owned in Australia are cross-bred, not purebred or bred by breeders with any ethics or any affiliations whatsoever. Yes, they may LOVE their dogs, but they are not bound to health-test, and can basically breed and charge what they like. These dogs are often sold as pure, whether they are or not. I have seen someone at my local park with a dog he knows is a Malamute, because his breeder told him it was. The dog is CLEARLY not a malamute. It looks like it has boxer in it, among other breeds...

I'm not so naiive as to think that all registered breeders are health-testing, either! But at least there is some recourse if they can be proven to have failed in their duty - though *cough* whether the ANKC ever actually does anything, is also in doubt...

[ricky young]

When are people gunna wake up to themselves and realise that a crossbred is nothing more than a mongrel and nothing less. Labradoodle Spandoodle just don't exist and are nothing more than crossbreds. Poor stupid fools. We have a lady in our community that believes that Labradoodles are a purebred and will soon be a registered breed,the lying puppy-farmers should be taken to court for fraud.A certain channel nine gardener has a lot to answer for in Australia.Now my anger is getting me off the subject.