Do our Irish Setters lack pointing instinct in comparison to the other pointing & setting breeds?

[Susan Stone]

I've been urged to start this new theme rather than continue the discussion under the theme on 'standard' set by Wim. I am at present not actually sure this will end up being a very valid discussion theme as we may just end up with votes of 'no they don't' versus 'yes they do'... 

All statements can really only demonstrate personal impressions as I doubt any of us here can look back on many years of experience in training a large number of Irish Setters originating from many different breeding lines...

But here we go, I'd like to put the following questions to you:

1. Is the pointing/setting instinct still present in our breed?
2. Should we be doing more to preserve pointing & hunting instinct?
3. Do you as a breeder look to breed from dogs with pointing instinct?
4. Would you wish for your dog to be assessed by a trainer as to his (the dog's!) natural ablities?
5. What background knowledge do you base your views on?

[Susan Stone]

Ann, this is in response to your last entry where we have run out of 'reply' buttons:-))

Hope you don't mind me taking you up on this (and I'm doing it a bit tongue-in-cheek to keep this discussion moving a little longer).

Ann Millington wrote: 

Whatever we 'do' with our dogs we should not lose sight of the fact that it is a hobby, even though our lives turn around it!

 

Yes, it is a life-fulfilling hobby - but surely that does not mean we don't have certain responsibilities?

Fine for the pet owner to enjoy walks and companionship of their setter without worrying about what the dog was originally bred for (though a bit of understanding certainly helps:-)). I am certainly not one to make derogatory remarks about pet owners as I know that the majority of dog owners is exactly that - and these are the people who love and care for their dogs as members of the family and ensure their dogs lead a happy life.

However breeders and judges DO have responsibilities toward 'their' breed as it is they who are influencing the way the breeds develop.

I fear saying dogs are 'just a hobby' gives the impression there is no need to consider these responsibilities... 

 

 

[Carmel Murphy]

I agree Susan, that we breeders must take our job seriously, for the breed's future! We help improve the health and preserve the type, for everyone, including pet owners;o) Not always an easy job either!

[Ann Millington]

Ok - I meant that our dogs are our optional leisure-time preocupations - we don't have to depend on them for our living.  I don't count those who need dogs in their work - stock managers, police work, or those who make their living selling dog paraphernalia and puppies (although I guess the last could be called a profitable hobby.)

I believe some owners lose perspective in the dealings with their dogs - they "love them to the exclusion of all else." literally, or they are so wrapped up in their own successes come what may, it is a bit unhealthy.

 

But if that's the way the hobby takes them.... however, is there any room for responsibility towards their breed? Hopefully these folks are in a minority and owners have a more balanced and comprehensive view.

[Susan Stone]

Oops, sorry I missed this post, Ann.

IMO the point you raise here would merit a completely new discussion:

Does the pride, joy and love of the individual for their own dogs leave room for a critical and balanced view of the breed as a whole?

I think you are right, Ann. It is a bit unhealthy... both for the owner and even more so for the breed.

[Susan Stone]

"Anyone can train an Irish Setter to a reasonable standard of work. One doesn't need to be wealthy and have expensive facilities. But what one must have is a dog with the instinct to work and the brains to be taught.

"Mr Rasbridge's avowal that all Irish Setters can work given the opportunity is so much rot. But it has led to generations of novices into thinking that there is no need to prove their dogs' ability at work: should anyone want to do so the ability will be there still. It will not, as has been proved over and over again.

"In this way greater exaggeration has been allowed to increase. Most show-bred Irish Setters today are far too narrow all through and lacking substance. They could never stand up to a day's work. (...) "

Not my words... I wouldn't dare...;-)) But I love reading about the breed in the past and seeing the photographs and just stumbled over this article recently. I'll let you guess: Who's words are these, and when were they uttered? Any ideas?  

[Catherine Carter]

Susan

could it be Florence Nagle ? Just a first guess.....

[Susan Stone]

Catherin, well done! Right first go! ;-))

Florence Nagle of Sulhamstead fame, a lady dedicated to whatever cause she took up, and obviously quite outspoken!

The above is quoted from an article in Dog World 1976 (I think it was Henk who sent me the article a while ago).

[Catherine Carter]

Having had the chance to be introduced to Florence Nagle by some common friends when I started in the Breed , I always valued her comments and the advice she gave me then (almost 30 years ago)......at the time not many people were able to stand up to Mr Rasbridge but she was one of the few who had a foot in both camps (shows and field-trials) and her dogs were so sound that she knew exactly what she was talking about when she said that some of the show dogs would not last a day in the field!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Ferelith Somerfield's biography of Florence Nagle , Mission Accomplished, has five pages  devoted to Mrs Nagle's views on show bred Irish and why, in her opinion, they were incapable of working (Chapter 16, WhyTwo Camps ? pp. 164-168. I havent got time to quote all of it, but she said the show setters didnt have the construction, the bone,  the brain, the stamina, the capacity to gallop all day,or the nose . She said that inbreeding to get show type had produced "Disastrous results to their brains" She said she had tried breeding two of her FTCh bitches to two leading show sires , which produced 16 puppies, of which 15 were useless and untrainable and one made a moderately useful shooting dog. These were not privately held views, she wrote often  and unambiguously  for the dog press on the subject,. But if somebody with Florence Nagle's forceful personality, weath and status couldnt change things, who could? In the 1960s she gave up on Irish Setters.

What was very sad was that not one of her beautiful, sound field trial champions ever got made up as a show champion. Not the type the show judges were looking for

[Ann Millington]

So give up folks.

[Susan Stone]

You can't be serious, Ann! ;-))

OK, lets not expect a Dual Champion quite yet... but maybe a few more Qualifyers within the next year or so?

[Catherine Carter]

Ann,

I am not giving up....see my last two blogs....but I train to have dogs that can do some rough shooting , I don't think I will ever enter a field-trial. :-)))