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AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete https://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? https://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

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Since this is my first post on this site , I am not sure where to put this...so here it is.

I am an owner of a Snowfire Irish Red and White Setter and a red setter. Some of you may have heard or read that this past October I sent out reults of a genetic test conducted by Dr. Neale Fretwell of Mars Veterinary.

The test was designed to assist him in collecting data to develop a baseline for the IRW. This baseline is used to assist people of mixed-breed dogs to ascertain what genetic traits or markers their dog possesses. The Principal Component Analysis or PCA is different that the tests done for the average dog public. It can determine in comparison to other dogs tested whether all the dogs fit into a particular grouping. In other words, whether a dog is an IRW or Irish setter or English or Gordon, etc.

A group of us-me, Mark Atkins, Jean Plummer-Beattie, Darin and Lisa Fambrough, and Chuck an Kathy Bennett submitted blood samples to Dr. Fretwell. These 15 dogs included Snowfires, Harrys, Irish imports, Dutch imports, and Scottish imports. Some of the dogs were registered and accepted by AKC and other well-respected registries. They were lumped together with IRWs tested from England, Ireland, and perhaps other countries. The results were that all of the dogs fell into the same grouping as IRWs with no real distinguishable differences. None that I am sure of were considered any other breed or any other setter breed. There were varying degrees of markers from other breeds found in all the IRWs that appear on a chart that was included in the test received by the AKC, UKC, IRWSC of Ireland, the club of England, FCI, and the IRWSA of the U.S. These were appaent for all the IRWs tested from our group and Europe.

In the past two weeks, I have received several e-mails from a few folks that feel I have some sinister motive. I have been treated to quite an expose' of the histroy of the breed, the pedigrees, and statements from enthusiasts. I also have these pedigrees that I received four or five years ago and are current up until then. I am also of the understanding of the history from Ireland and England as well as the U.S. I will, however, concede that I am not a match for some of you experts in the history or pedigree fields. But...and this is a rather large but..I am not approaching this from those viewpoints at all. I am using the science that is now available to find out why my dog and others of the Snowfire and Harry lines were excluded as being "impure" or not considered IRWs.

Back about four years ago I heard of canine genome testing done in Washington state for use on cancer patients. I also heard that they were able to break down the genetic charateristics of breeds. I inquired, but those tests were not available to the general public. In the past few years, some of the folks splintered off to form companies that do this testing. In 2002, two weeks after I visted Ireland for an IRW show and field trials my dog was cancelled by IKC through the wishes of IRWSC of Ireland. I had a picture of my dog that showed to the good folks there, They liked the look of that dog. So, after it was cancelled, I asked myself if my dog looks good to the Irish, looks like any other IRW I saw, performs in the field as well as anyother dog I saw, and most importantly meets the standards set for the dog by the country of origin, then why was it not an IRW.

It wasn't too long that a splinter group, the IRWSA, became the parent club of AKC to represent the breed. One of its first official duties was to contact the old gentleman who sold me my dog and declare his Snowfires were "impure" and that they were Irish setters. Now, I know what an Irish setter looks like, and believe me, my IRW is not an Irish setter. This club came out on its website declaring our dogs were not IRWs and should not be confused with their dogs. I and Mr. Atkins hired an attorney to kindly ask them to remove the libelous material on that site since our dogs were registered with UKC as IRWs, a registry by the way older than AKC. They did.

So, several of us availed ourselves of this test. We took a risk that ended up telling us and the IRW community that all these dogs are the same genetically. Now as an individual, I am not interested in belonging to any registry or dog club, although I know that others are, and this fine. I only joined UKC to do very occasional field trials. I am a bird hunter pure and simple. My dog was spayed at six months, so I have no self interest in breeding. My only interest is to see that the Snowfire and/or Harry lines of dogs receive the correct and rightful place within the IRW breed. Quite simply, they are what they are, and no amount of history and pedigree paper will be able to put this genie back into the bottle.

The genetic test material is now out there. I am satisfied with the results and will continue to publish this material wherever possible to whomever would be interested in reading it. There are those who insist that I am "hiding" something by not listing the names of the owners and dogs tested in Europe. They are flat wrong. I don't know who they are. Dr. Fretwell's tests promise confidentiality to the owners. I respect that. We released our dogs and names because we had a point to prove, and we did so. I do know that all the dogs tested required the owners names, the full name of the dog, and its individual registry number(s).

The thing is, and there seems to be a reluctance to do this, you need to contact Dr. Fretwell about these tests and get an understanding of them. It is the way of the future, ladies and gentlemen. Better still, I am sure he is looking for more dogs to put in his baseline grouping. You can simply contact him, ask about the tests, request a test kit, and send it back to receive your results. Then you will know exactly whose dog is in the tests. Trying to discredit me or kicking my dog is waste of all of our time. Dr. Fretwell's e-mail address is Neale.Fretwell@mss.effem.com.

Greg Willams
Send it to Dr. Fretwell and ask him about it.

Greg Williams
Are dog DNA tests really reliable?

You have to understand the Principal Component Test (PCA). AKC's David Roberts ran the same type of information by me. I have seen this before. I sent the Roberts post to Dr. Fretwell. He agreed that Mars states that the tests conducted for mixed-breeds do no determine breed. The PCA, however, is not the same test and can group dogs by breed. Contact Dr. Fretwell. He will be glad to explain it to you. When people begin to seek the information from the right source, it will become more credible.

Greg Williams




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