Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Ossian]

Eva
It isnt a subject for open discussion on a forum. I can never figure why the "Princes of Darkness" generate the evil side in their owners

[eva ciechonska]

Ossian........I know, you are right. Just musing. It is making my mate unhappy though.

Oh b....... hell my young dog has just projected his marrow bone across the room and it has missed the tele by centimetres.

Another little aside, gives us respite before we launch back into the serious stuff............

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I think you are jumping in and reacting without reading what I write or knowing anyhting about my dogs. I own some show dogs, and some of mixed show/working breeding, so not exactly one of what you seem to think are a "closed group" of people with working dogs. And I havent found them a closed group either, if you really want to train your dog and are prepared to put in the work, you can find help and support

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret, I assume you are responding to Sue not to me.....the comments are flying so thick and fast that you have to sit on this site all day to keep up!!!!!! Time I clocked off and went out to dinner............

[Pat Aldridge]

Kristi, I'm replying to this post as there is no reply available on your first post.
Please do not use the American show Irish Setter (the Meadowlarks dog) as an example of the rest of the world. There are still countries outside America where the breed has not been turned into a travesty as has happened to the breed IN SOME HANDS in the US. (Note, some, not all.) The Red Setter (not the Irish Setter) in the US is often (but not always I hasten to add) the product of an ancestry littered with cross breeding to produce what was required by the US hunters. Fine, if that is what they wanted. But do not tell me that dog is an Irish Setter.
I don't post very often as I seem to end up with high blood pressure after reading Henk's posts.

[Ossian]

Good post Pat but go and lie down in a darkened room for a while. We will give you a shout when "The Henk" appears LOL

[Jennifer Martin]

My, Oh, My! - reading through the post's Henk certainly did open up a 'can of worm's' when he started this discussion - possible change the title to 'who let the dog's out!?'. Ossian you are such a 'wag'! LOL

[eva ciechonska]

Hey Pat, Henky has a similar effect on me, though luckily I don't suffer from high blood pressure.
It aint alf improved me writing skill though!!!!!!!

[eva ciechonska]

Finn, you rock too!!!!!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Like a dalek :)) Full metal jacket , programmed to keep saying the same thing interminably, never gives up and keeps coming back for more . Around on the internet since the 1990s

[Pat Aldridge]

Having a coffee instead LOL! I read all these posts on whether or not the Irish Setter has changed since the 60s - of course it has, nothing stands still, most of the "old guard" have passed on, we no longer have mentors as we used to do when we started out. With rising costs for shows/breeding, it is only to be expected that some people will, however subconsciously they are doing it, breed whatever it takes to win in the ring. To a large extent the judges are also to blame for a definite lessening of that "breed type" which prevailed in former times. And, as in everything else, "fashions" tend to take over. C'est la vie...

But trying to take the breed back to what it was - or is thought to have been - is pointless. What we have now is what we must work with, for better I hope. My old mentor always said to me "I don't care what you do, but you must always leave the breed in as good a state as you found it - never worse off." ( He did care what I did, bless him - I really miss Frank Cantwell (Ballymoss, NZ).

And I must note here that my perspective on the breed is from living in New Zealand - the UK will be different again.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Pat,
The AFBIS was an outcross with an English Filed Setter. I already explained this several times. All setters have been crossed through out the years. The Irish Setter was a sad case. People took advantage of its beauty, by the way it was much more beautiful as an Irish Setter then the replica. If it wasn't done the bench AIS which is what it is would no longer hunt. Look at the show websites they show these big goofy looking dogs. I am sorry I will never accept this as an Irish Setter because it is not. Again all setters were crossed, pointers and english were crossed, GS and EP were crossed. Next the poodle people will move the poodle back into the sporting dog arena and get into hunting. The AKC wont let them trial they can only enter hunt tests. Right as we speak those big low to the ground GR's are being outcrossed with AFBS's. Hunters need to get the size, hunting ability and coat back into the breed. Beagles are all in puppy mills, do you really want to see this happen. Who said AKC or breed clubs make a dog. If hunting dogs aren't aloud to show then what are they showing. In the US alone AKC made 4 million dollars off of puppy mill registrations. I'm posting these photos again. Look at the show and then the field. The field is the original dog. The only difference between AFBIS and Irish Setters are the high Tail. I posted it once and I'll will post again. Also the show people are crossing Brophey's dogs with show dogs. It is out in the open now. Brophey runs his dogs in many AKC trials. He wins probably 99.5% of the trials. It gets boring to see after a while. Most of the other hunting dogs AKC won't allow in the trials. They only allow the show dogs. Good or bad its just info. Some like show some prefer field. I would say AFBRS is much more like an IS then the bench dog. Another example is the Border Collie. It was not allowed to particapate in any AKC events unless it became part of the BCAOA. What a shame. A lovely breed and another big head. People like to have control. They like to alter things to what suits them. I love dogs so much. They are a gift from god. They have beautiful spirits. They should be the one thing humans let be who they are.

Thanks

http://www.irishredsetterclub.com/home/index.php?option=com_phocaga...

AFBIS

http://www.brophysirishsetters.com/Dogs%20on%20Point/Pages/Image39....